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Author Topic: D7 (and Am) Bass  (Read 6504 times)

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The Oul' Boy

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D7 (and Am) Bass
« on: December 07, 2019, 03:42:02 PM »

D7, is it worth bothering with in a tune like Planxty Fanny Power (excuse my French), or is regular D chord a perfectly good substitute? Likewise with Am in the same tune, and in Princess Royal? I so far don't find playing these more complicated bass chords easy (especially combined with the minims in Planxty) and the result doesn't sound that great on my Pokerwork, but I don't want to avoid them just for ease of play. Oh, and playing in G in both cases.

Thanks!

Warren.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 05:17:14 PM by The Oul' Boy »
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Gena Crisman

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 03:58:09 PM »

Chords that sound good are always worthwhile, I think. But if they don't sound good then, well, maybe don't do them and try to play something that won't clash with what you know other people are doing?

Any idea why doesn't Am sound good on your pokerwork?

It's worth noting that referring to the tunes in question, there's not really a universally agreed way to accompany a tune. So a specific example/which bar you're talking about might help.
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 04:41:43 PM »

I'd refer you to online versions, but they all have very different bass suggestions! I'm following Dave Mallinson's suggestions in his Easy Peasy Tunes book. In PFP, he recommends D7 in (full) bars 7 and 8, and Am in bar 12. In PR, he recommends Am for the 2nd half of (full) bar 5 (and in another later bar). The Am's sounds OK, but the bass end of my Pokerwork is rather growly-tinny and these double-button basses sound even more so. The D7 in PFP doesn't sound much better (worse in some ways) than plain D, so I'm interested to know what chords people prefer in these parts of the tunes.
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 05:34:56 PM »

You can get yourself into hot water using 7th chords with old Irish tunes, such as Carolan's Planxties. Just saying. You need to ask someone that plays them, like Staimh or Richard Fleming. It may be more acceptable these days, but it used to send The Session into a lather.
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Greg Smith
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 05:42:48 PM »


You can get yourself into hot water using 7th chords with old Irish tunes, such as Carolan's Planxties. Just saying. You need to ask someone that plays them, like Staimh or Richard Fleming. It may be more acceptable these days, but it used to send The Session into a lather.
Or just play English tunes where we don't police how you play in any way 8)

The Oul' Boy

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 06:05:06 PM »

Or just play English tunes where we don't police how you play in any way[/size] 8)

Ahem... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaSJSd0aOY  ;) (I love your version by the way, I'm more or less attempting to play the same right-hand melody as you, just thinking about bass options.)
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 06:19:55 PM »

Mind you, just play the way it takes your fancy.
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Greg Smith
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george garside

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 06:31:16 PM »


You can get yourself into hot water using 7th chords with old Irish tunes, such as Carolan's Planxties. Just saying. You need to ask someone that plays them, like Staimh or Richard Fleming. It may be more acceptable these days, but it used to send The Session into a lather.
Or just play English tunes where we don't police how you play in any way 8)

totally agree!  and bearing  in mind that many old tunes were written as treble only eg for fiddles or maybe weren't written  at all  any bass that sounds right will be right

george

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 10:04:05 PM »

... bearing  in mind that many old tunes were written as treble only eg for fiddles or maybe weren't written  at all  any bass that sounds right will be right

I  have seen hardened session musicians moaning that there shouldn't be any harmony playing at all. Just melodies.

I distance myself from that category. It is some people's point of view, though.
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Greg Smith
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george garside

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 10:39:47 PM »

... bearing  in mind that many old tunes were written as treble only eg for fiddles or maybe weren't written  at all  any bass that sounds right will be right

I  have seen hardened session musicians moaning that there shouldn't be any harmony playing at all. Just melodies.

I distance myself from that category. It is some people's point of view, though.
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george garside

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2019, 10:50:27 PM »

... bearing  in mind that many old tunes were written as treble only eg for fiddles or maybe weren't written  at all  any bass that sounds right will be right

I  have seen hardened session musicians moaning that there shouldn't be any harmony playing at all. Just melodies.

I distance myself from that category. It is some people's point of view, though.

I can see where the harmony only proponents are coming from.  In  small sessions with more or less the same people regularly   harmony is more likely to  match the melody being played  whereas in large irregular eg festival sessions there can sometimes (? frequently) be  Heinz 57 verieties of harmony resulting in disharmony                                         
 or indeed cacophony.  eg some loud heavy um pa -ing , some droning in the hope it may blend with the melody  and some playing bass that simply does not harmonise with  anything.    When playing in such sessions I tend to play treble only so as not to add to the cacophony.

george     
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2019, 11:32:40 PM »


I can see where the harmony only proponents are coming from.  In  small sessions with more or less the same people regularly   harmony is more likely to  match the melody being played  whereas in large irregular eg festival sessions there can sometimes (? frequently) be  Heinz 57 verieties of harmony resulting in disharmony                                         
 or indeed cacophony.


That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about people playing Irish music who think any sort of harmony accompaniment is not "the pure drop". 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 11:39:34 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2019, 08:16:48 AM »

It’s a different tradition where the melody line is the the thing.  As with a session of any tradition it’s polite to listen first and understand what is happening, before jointing in. 
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2019, 08:46:44 AM »

It’s a different tradition where the melody line is the the thing.  As with a session of any tradition it’s polite to listen first and understand what is happening, before jointing in.

and it doesn't mean you shouldn't play your tune your way.
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Greg Smith
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2019, 10:23:07 AM »

Thanks all! But the issue of the appropriateness of bass accompaniment to particular kinds of music aside, does anyone have any comments on the use of D7 and Am in these tunes in particular, and on how to make these double-button bass chords sound any way good on my pokerwork (given that they sound very tinny-growly, even aside from the question of how these chords sounds in accompaniment with the treble side)?
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2019, 10:32:36 AM »

... does anyone have any comments on the use of D7 and Am in these tunes in particular, and on how to make these double-button bass chords sound any way good on my pokerwork (given that they sound very tinny-growly, even aside from the question of how these chords sounds in accompaniment with the treble side)?

Assuming you're playing C bass with a pull or push D chord for D7 and A bass with a pull C chord for Am they should work fine on a DG pokerwork. I'm not sure about tinny, but growly is good, in my book.

They should sound good with the melody if they're been played in appropriate places. They're a pretty standard way to go.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 10:34:23 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2019, 12:36:42 PM »

It’s a different tradition where the melody line is the the thing.  As with a session of any tradition it’s polite to listen first and understand what is happening, before jointing in.
Yes - you mitres well do it as it helps you dovetail into the session. More - 'tis good practice, especially if there's more than ten on yer there. Butt - don't let it put you off. Lap it up and see.
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David Summers

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2019, 02:54:47 PM »

To me its very dependent on the tune. 7th chords, by containing both the root and the seventh, have notes only a tone apart. That always creates a bit of a clash. Now some songs use that, take "Go Down Moses", on the phase "Let my people go" and "people" always has a seventh chord, its needed so you can resolve on "go".

On a melodeon its also sometimes given by the instrument, e.g. when you only have major chords on the left hand, if you want a minor chord, your only option is to add a minor third below the root, to give a minor seventh chord - and if thats the only minor chord you have, then use it.

Some songs have seventh chords, and to my mind they don't seem to need it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 03:00:24 PM by David Summers »
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Jesse Smith

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2019, 02:15:51 PM »

Some people (e.g., John Kirkpatrick) are rather outspoken that dominant 7th chords are rarely appropriate in traditional English music.

I am not sure that a D chord with a C bass really passes as a legitimate D7, unless maybe as part of a bass run that resolves to the G. The Am7 formed by playing C with an A bass is a perfectly reasonable chord with the bass in the right place, although even so the 7th may be sound a bit jarring depending on the context.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2019, 02:20:21 PM »


I am not sure that a D chord with a C bass really passes as a legitimate D7,

Technically, you are probably right, but it is a standard and commonly encountered way of doing it on the basses in these parts.
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Greg Smith
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ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce
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