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Author Topic: Learning diatonic accordion  (Read 5825 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2019, 12:28:29 PM »

If I am being brutally honest, my musical knowledge is very basic.
But.... I know the notes on the stave, those just above and just below the stave, and knowing where D and G is on the melodeon means can count up the buttons to get where the next note is.
Add to it a very fundamental knowledge of what a 3 note chord is and what notes form those chords on your melodeon gives you a massive advantage.
Any more theory is a bonus, but those things provide you with a good base for melodeon music we play, in my opinion.
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Howard Jones

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2019, 12:47:43 PM »

At the risk of stating the obvious, to learn diatonic accordion you should stick to playing diatonic tunes, at least to begin with.  In another post the OP was asking about playing 'O Sole Mio' which relies heavily not only on a distinctive accidental note in the melody but on an accompanying chord which isn't on the bass end of a standard instrument.  I don't want to revisit the discussion on that thread, simply to say that you'll make more progress by concentrating on simple diatonic tunes which suit the instrument.  Once you have developed some skill you can then explore ways of playing other more complicated tunes, but you have to bear in mind that this is a limited instrument - within its limitations it can do some amazing things, but not all music can be played on it.

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2019, 12:54:20 PM »

Music theory changed fundamentally over time, and different cultures developed different music theories. Therefore I would hesitate to speak of 'instinctive knowledge'.

Fair enough, "instinct" wasn't quite the right word. More "what you're used to" than "what you were born with", but my point (that theory simply codifies your musical expectations) remains.
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george garside

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2019, 02:57:16 PM »

funny thing this musical theory!    Those who have had some 'classical' training seem to worry about it much more than those who play by ear or mostly by ear  working on the basis that if it sounds right it is right.

This could well be because the former group have been brought up to play a tune 'correctly'' ( whatever that means)  and the latter group  just poke around until they get it sounding the way they want it to sound'

There are of course both crap and brilliant players  in each school and for what its worth I have generally found those with little or no 'classical' theory much easier to teach melodeon  perhaps because they worry less about the theory of it.??????????????? 

george
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2019, 05:23:28 PM »


Music theory reveals the structures and raises them from the unconscious to the conscious, so that you know what you’re doing.


So, if one plays from the concious, rather than the subconcious,  is it better, or worse, or just...?
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Winston Smith

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2019, 05:51:03 PM »

"is it better, or worse,"

A good question, methinks! I find (I think) that I play better from the subconscious. When I have to think about what comes next, I go all to pot. It's the same as when I try to sing along to a tune, even one that I can play, and/or sing, without the slightest hesitation; my fingers just turn to uncontrollable jelly, and the buttons seem to move about out of reach. It's awful!
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george garside

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2019, 06:24:51 PM »

very good question!   for what its worth I see  playing the right notes in the right order as being done subconsciously   which comes with practice  and leaves the 'concious' department free to transform playing the right notes in the right order into 'music' - and there is a huge difference between the two!.   The right notes in the right order in a mechanical action but changing that into 'music requires  careful consideration and attention to such things as  dynamics, phrasing and rhythm  all of which require active listening to and detailed adjustment of not just the notes but the gaps between them etc etc


george
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2019, 06:46:50 PM »

if one plays from the concious, rather than the subconcious,  is it better, or worse
I have witnesses who will attest to the fact that I have been known to continue playing the accordion whilst unconscious.
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Winston Smith

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2019, 07:07:52 PM »

Novice that I certainly am, I'm almost fearful of contradicting Mr Garside!
However, it seems to me that while singing, I have no need to consciously change emphasis, volume, or whatever else is needed to convey the full meaning or emotion of the words which I'm singing; it just comes naturally! I find that it's the same with squeezing, except that I cannot usually do it when the added (conscious) distraction of recording or playing to a stationary audience comes into play.
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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2019, 09:00:34 PM »

Seeing as I'm still recovering from some nasty surgery, I haven't been allowed to go busking or carol singing for our usual Christmastime charity (Action for Children). But I did promise myself that when the carol singers arrived at our door, I'd accompany them on the box!
This is the case which proves the point I made above:
My beloved wanted "In the Bleak Midwinter" which I know double-well. (Even in the right key on the Eb row of my Bb/Eb Liliput.) They only sing two verses, or they wouldn't get home before Christmas dinner time! The first verse went swimmingly, but when I decided to join in with the singing half way through the second verse, I had to stop again almost immediately, as the playing just went awry. It's very annoying!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2019, 09:27:56 PM »

I've just finished a book entitled 'The Inner Game of Music' and it discusses Self 1  vs Self 2.
Self 1 is your consciousness chatting to you "oh too fast, oops missed a note, what is that shopping we need?, don't forget the anniversary...' etc etc.
It is the chatter that puts you off.

Self 2 is your sub conscious, where all the musical memory lies.
If you can relax into Self 2 and let it take over, then you will play to the best of your ability, but you need to silence Self 1.
I'm working on silencing Self 1!!

I read it then immediately re-read it, and there's a lot of sense in it and I fully understand what it says, I just need to put it into practice.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2019, 11:46:05 PM »

Novice that I certainly am, I'm almost fearful of contradicting Mr Garside!
However, it seems to me that while singing, I have no need to consciously change emphasis, volume, or whatever else is needed to convey the full meaning or emotion of the words which I'm singing; it just comes naturally! I find that it's the same with squeezing, except that I cannot usually do it when the added (conscious) distraction of recording or playing to a stationary audience comes into play.

feel entirely free to contradict me or anyone else in the interest of maintaining good friendly debate

george ;)
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Howard Jones

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2019, 10:07:28 AM »

Theory is the grammar of music.  We don't consciously learn the grammar of our native language when we learn to talk as children, and we can speak before we can read and write.  Similarly, we unconsciously learn what sounds right and what sounds wrong in the forms of music we listen to the most, and apply that knowledge when we play ourselves.  Music theory and notation may help us to understand what is going on, and to communicate our musical ideas to others, but we don't need to know them in a formal sense in order to make music, any more than we need to know the rules of grammar in order to be able to speak. 

Learning some music theory will help you to understand and give names to what you are already doing.  It may help you to be more creative if you can apply rules rather than trial-and-error, and it will help you to communicate your ideas to others.  It is most easily learned alongside learning the instrument itself, rather than as a later addition.  However you don't need it in order to play.

Jesse Smith

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2019, 02:27:29 PM »

I've just finished a book entitled 'The Inner Game of Music' and it discusses Self 1  vs Self 2.
Self 1 is your consciousness chatting to you "oh too fast, oops missed a note, what is that shopping we need?, don't forget the anniversary...' etc etc.
It is the chatter that puts you off.

But is there maybe a Self 1b, perhaps "the Controlled Consciousness" that says, "OK, don't forget to play this part nice and bouncy, great, and this part coming up we have to remember to do that twiddle we practiced... Yeah, that was OK but remember we wanted to make that part a lot smoother like on the recording we heard, how do we get there?"

A lot of practicing for me is closely listening to what I'm playing, comparing it to other recordings of musicians that played something I really liked and want to learn to play like, and then figuring out what to do with arms and fingers to make it sound more like that. It's not music theory but it's definitely very conscious awareness of what I am playing.
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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2019, 03:54:21 PM »

I've just finished a book entitled 'The Inner Game of Music' and it discusses Self 1  vs Self 2.

Thank you Q...I have just ordered the book. I hope it helps!


A lot of practicing for me is closely listening to what I'm playing, comparing it to other recordings of musicians that played something I really liked and want to learn to play like, and then figuring out what to do with arms and fingers to make it sound more like that. It's not music theory but it's definitely very conscious awareness of what I am playing.

That, pretty much, describes exactly what I do Jesse. I do try, if the tune is one I want to hold on to and not just a learning exercise, to learn it by heart. Only then do I find that it becomes easier and I can add more feeling to the tune and make it my own. There is a very experienced fiddle player that I know, who I have often seen playing, note perfect and sometimes at speed, while having a conversation with the person sat next to her. I don't know how she does it but it is something that has always impressed me!

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george garside

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2019, 04:22:14 PM »

listening to the detail of what is coming out of the box in respect of length of notes, phrasing, dynamics etc and making adjustments thereto on the hoof is vital to good playing. however  no conscious thought  should be required as to playing the right notes in the right order , fingering, bellowing or whatever i.e think the tune and leave it to the brain to send the right signals down the arms.

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2019, 05:02:52 PM »

Well, Jesse, if listening to Self 1 b you are thinking about this that and the other regarding your playing as you play, that is distracting even though it is on-subject. It means you are thinking and that is the distraction.
It makes the point that Self 2 takes over and subconsciously let's you play with feeling and express yourself *without thinking about it* because your subconscious takes over.

Another point that really hit home was how powerful your subconscious is so long as you allow it to be.
I realised this after reading one chapter. Sometimes playing in a session, especially to begin with, I sometimes feel lost. I'm not getting the tunes, other people's tunes I cannot pick up.
I sit there, and somehow relax and .... other people's tunes start to come to my fingers.
It might sound a bit 'right on' but I've found it makes complete sense to me.

Good luck with the book arty.  Come back and let me know what you think of it.
Cheers
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Dick Rees

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2019, 06:34:59 PM »

Theory is the grammar of music.  We don't consciously learn the grammar of our native language when we learn to talk as children, and we can speak before we can read and write.  Similarly, we unconsciously learn what sounds right and what sounds wrong in the forms of music we listen to the most, and apply that knowledge when we play ourselves.  Music theory and notation may help us to understand what is going on, and to communicate our musical ideas to others, but we don't need to know them in a formal sense in order to make music, any more than we need to know the rules of grammar in order to be able to speak. 

Learning some music theory will help you to understand and give names to what you are already doing.  It may help you to be more creative if you can apply rules rather than trial-and-error, and it will help you to communicate your ideas to others.  It is most easily learned alongside learning the instrument itself, rather than as a later addition.  However you don't need it in order to play.

Well said!

As to the concious/subconscious and Self 1/2, I often state it as letting the Music play me rather than than t'other way 'round.

Happy holidays to all.  Keep skweezin'!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2019, 06:55:14 PM »

Yes Dick, I think you are right.
We all know those rare ( for me )  occasions where we simply play. The tunes flow, mistakes disappear and we just get lost in the music. That's what the book tries to head you towards and describe it something like 'relaxed concentration'
Once in that state you play your best, I know I do!
Trouble is, learning how to get there regularly!!!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2019, 06:57:11 PM »

or simply just let a tune fester in the brain all by itself.   I sometimes find myself playing a tune reasonably well but have no idea of its title or when and where I've heard it' . Then its over to the polishing department !

george

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