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Author Topic: Learning diatonic accordion  (Read 5827 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2019, 08:20:58 PM »

Which is another way of saying  letting your subconscious takes over!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Jesse Smith

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2019, 02:39:42 AM »

Well, Jesse, if listening to Self 1 b you are thinking about this that and the other regarding your playing as you play, that is distracting even though it is on-subject. It means you are thinking and that is the distraction.
It makes the point that Self 2 takes over and subconsciously let's you play with feeling and express yourself *without thinking about it* because your subconscious takes over.

Yes, that definitely sounds like the goal that we all work towards. But on the way to that goal I find it really helpful to be as conscious as possible about what I am playing and what I want to be playing and the gap between the two. Perhaps in its ideal form it's like a sort of meditative state of mind where the conscious mind is observing the performing mind at some degree of detachment.

I fear we may be overwhelming poor Tony, who just wanted a recommendation for a good tutor book or some YouTube videos! ::)
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2019, 08:13:34 AM »

Jesse, yes I think you are absolutely right on both points:
Performing in a meditative state is I think a good way to think of it
....and yes we we've drifted away from Tony's original question, somehow it always happens!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Brian J Morris

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2020, 04:48:22 PM »

I have a fundamental question. I have a B/C button accordion and I've been working on it for a bit over a year, and I've learned a number of songs. My question is fingering patterns. I've been playing these songs and I don't always use the same finger for the same note. It depends on what preceded it and the positions of my fingers at that time. My question is whether I should relearn the songs and use the same finger always for the same note. For example in the key of D, should my index finger always press low D, middle finger for E, and ring finger for F#? I've never taken lessons, just the occasional online video, and I also have a CD. Just wondering if I'm missing a basic concept that should be cleared up while I'm still in the beginning stages.

Thanks - Brian Morris, Rocky Point USA
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2020, 05:00:10 PM »

Brian,
I'm a DG player and often come across a similar situation.
My fingering pattern changes for the same note depending on how my fingers arrive at the note and where they then need to go. On a DG I have some notes that can be pushed on the G row or pulled on the D row ( or vice versa) and the decision whether to push it or pull it is dictated by the preceding notes or the following notes, whichever falls best to the finger.
That's my strategy!
Cheers
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

richard.fleming

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2020, 05:12:49 PM »

My question is whether I should relearn the songs and use the same finger always for the same note. For example in the key of D, should my index finger always press low D, middle finger for E, and ring finger for F#?

Thanks - Brian Morris, Rocky Point USA

That approach makes no sense to me. You've a whole keyboard for your hand to roam over. Your brain and your ear learn the positions and sounds of the notes, and you play the notes with whichever fingers are handiest at the time according. for example, to whether the tune is moving up or down the keyboard at the time. You try not overthink about your fingers, concentrate on the tune. People may contradict this, of course - wouldn't be melnet otherwise! But if you watch a competent player's hand move over the keyboard you can immediately see how silly it would be if they interrupted the flow constantly, jumping about so that, for example, their index finger should always play the low D
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2020, 06:04:42 PM »

Yes exactly. As richard says, go with the flow and let your fingers walk!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Barlow

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2020, 06:18:12 PM »

The question is reasonable enough. (This new post from Brian today could do with its own thread).

When I first started (B/C), without formal lessons but with plenty of general music knowledge, I made a lovely system of playing all notes with the same finger and just moved strictly up and down the keyboard like a violin player might use positions up the fretboard.

I was rather pleased with my system of positions and could soon knock out a few tunes. But pride comes before a fall and soon enough I hit the wall. The system proved restrictive and somewhat ridiculous.

I realised I had to be more fluid with my fingers, the only fixed one generally being the start note, which was often the first finger but not necessarily.

It was the music that was important not the discipline of the fingering (some form of OCD seemed to be kicking in...)

A bit controversial, but something I would suggest is to use only 3 fingers. For plenty of reasons but just now, a good reason enough is that you will have a choice of only 2 fingers to use next, and it will likely be obvious which one. It takes some dexterity but that will come.

I would also suggest use a new finger for each new note, even if it is on the same button, but I doubt I will get too much support here for that one, but it was a cloud clearing for me.

I could write a whole load here, but I'll leave it just now.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2020, 09:39:51 PM »

The question is reasonable enough. (This new post from Brian today could do with its own thread).

A bit controversial, but something I would suggest is to use only 3 fingers. For plenty of reasons but just now, a good reason enough is that you will have a choice of only 2 fingers to use next, and it will likely be obvious which one. It takes some dexterity but that will come.

I would also suggest use a new finger for each new note, even if it is on the same button, but I doubt I will get too much support here for that one, but it was a cloud clearing for me.

I could write a whole load here, but I'll leave it just now.

No one ever seems to have a rational explanation for these theories. Take no notice would be my advice to Brian, just let your fingers roam up and down the keyboard as smoothly and as fluidly and as naturally as possible.
Edited to add:
Watching my fingers while playing and thinking about this post, I see that as the hand roams up and down the keyboard  the next button is always pressed by the finger nearest to it. If there is for example a jump to a note higher up the scale, then the little finger goes to it, because it is nearest. (Forget that nonsense about only playing with 3 fingers). I am talking as a semitone-box player. Obviously if you play DG and have 'accidentals' at some distance from where your hand is playing you've a problem, though that is easily solved.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 04:33:22 PM by richard.fleming »
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Open_G

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2020, 02:55:38 PM »

Re musical theory I can only speak for the music of the British Isles that I grew up singing and listening to. We all grew up singing songs (and therefore learning melodies) to things like Baa Baa Black Sheep, Oranges and Lemons, We get to instinctively understand things like resolution, major, minor, I, IV and V, chordal patterns etc. even if we don't understand why our music is so full of them, because these patterns learnt in childhood go all the way through modern music, unless it is deliberately discordant (the flattened 5th/devil's chord is still very prevalent in modern heavy metal). When lionel bart wrote Oom Pah, Pah, he couldn't have told you a waltz from a waltzer (I may have made that bit up, I don't know how much theory he did or didn't know, but I believe he was limited).

Musical theory starts to explain these things to us, and allows us to explore effects without simply fiddling about with our tools trying to find that sound in our head... I am no theoretical guru and still find myself hearing things in music and thinking how have they achieved that sound? the theory I know has helped on occasion. For something I got involved with once, someone asked me to record something spanish sounding on a guitar for a project. I twiddled around in the Phygian mode for a few minutes, and they were ecstatic.. I couldn't to this day state what I'd played, or play it again even close... but knowing that element of theory immediately meant I had a "go to."
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Howard Jones

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2020, 05:26:17 PM »

My question is whether I should relearn the songs and use the same finger always for the same note.

Which finger you use to play a note will depend on the notes around it.  You need to think about how the notes fit together into a phrase and work out the most suitable fingering to play that sequence.  You might play the notes one way going up the scale and differently going down.  Sometimes the best fingering will come quickly, sometimes you have to try several options.  If you've tied yourself into always using a particular finger for each note then you've restricted your choices. 

The same goes with phrases themselves, don't practice a phrase in isolation without thinking about how you got there and where you're going next. Sometimes you may have to compromise because the ideal fingering for a particular phrase doesn't fit well with the fingering of the phrases around it.

Stiamh

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2020, 09:24:47 PM »

Watching my fingers while playing and thinking about this post, I see that as the hand roams up and down the keyboard  the next button is always pressed by the finger nearest to it.

You sometimes see people playing an entire series of notes with, say, the index finger as they move down the keyboard (by down I mean towards the chin!). This would fit with what you have described above - always pressing with the nearest finger. So, too, would reaching for two or three consecutive buttons with the little finger - because every time that was the finger closest to the button required.

But - correct me if I'm wrong - I don't suppose this is what you mean or what you would recommend as an approach. In which case, I think our questioner might need more information.

Quote
Forget that nonsense about only playing with 3 fingers.

Yes - exactly what I thought the first time I heard this apparently absurd suggestion.

The second time I heard it - as a strong recommendation, not a suggestion - I decided to try it. Seriously try it. And there was no going back afterwards.  :|glug

richard.fleming

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2020, 11:16:20 PM »

Watching my fingers while playing and thinking about this post, I see that as the hand roams up and down the keyboard  the next button is always pressed by the finger nearest to it.

You sometimes see people playing an entire series of notes with, say, the index finger as they move down the keyboard (by down I mean towards the chin!). This would fit with what you have described above - always pressing with the nearest finger. So, too, would reaching for two or three consecutive buttons with the little finger - because every time that was the finger closest to the button required.

But - correct me if I'm wrong - I don't suppose this is what you mean or what you would recommend as an approach. In which case, I think our questioner might need more information.

Quote
Forget that nonsense about only playing with 3 fingers.

Yes - exactly what I thought the first time I heard this apparently absurd suggestion.

The second time I heard it - as a strong recommendation, not a suggestion - I decided to try it. Seriously try it. And there was no going back afterwards.  :|glug

I'm not - contrary to what some here might think - that given to controversy really. But I like to think that the experience of someone who bought his first semitone box in 1966 is worth something. Worth considering  anyway. To have four fingers roaming up and down the keyboard moving as economically and naturally as possible seems to make sense to me, and to be more natural than playing by some of the theories advanced above because it lets the brain and fingers work out what comes naturally.  Thinking and overthinking can, I think, get in the way of spontaneous music-making. But what comes naturally to me may well not be what comes naturally to Stiamh, who I respect even when I disagree with him.
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playandteach

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2020, 09:23:10 AM »

For what it's worth, I followed Stiamh's advice recently when trying out the one row (which I must pick up again). A lot of people here have advised scale practice, but to the best of my knowledge Stiamh was the only one to actually produce an example of how to approach this. I stuck with it for a week or so, and it made a lot of sense. Patterns of movement became useful for knowing how to predict the change in push pull sequences needed in scales, and although there are more leaps, they are normally smaller leaps and less tangled. I do have fairly good right hand dexterity because of my clarinet years, but Stiamh's advice was worth trying out.
I may not stick with it as many of the things I enjoy working on have elements of 2 part writing in the right hand - which of course requires all my fingers (and thumb). But if I get round to tidying up my one row playing, I'll use his 'system'.
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Stiamh

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2020, 11:23:43 AM »

But I like to think that the experience of someone who bought his first semitone box in 1966 is worth something. Worth considering  anyway. To have four fingers roaming up and down the keyboard moving as economically and naturally as possible seems to make sense to me, and to be more natural than playing by some of the theories advanced above because it lets the brain and fingers work out what comes naturally.  Thinking and overthinking can, I think, get in the way of spontaneous music-making.

Of course your experience is worth considering Richard - and having our hand and fingers "roaming as economically and naturally" is surely what we all aspire to. And I agree that one needs to get beyond thinking so that the whole process becomes subconscious.

If it came naturally to you, you are lucky. You were young, which must have helped! But it doesn't come naturally to everyone, as shown by all the questions that are raised here from time to time.

The thing is, as long as everybody realises that suggestions offered here are intended to help others, and are not made for the purpose of being right or laying down the law, we should be able to acknowledge each other's experience and viewpoint and agree to disagree respectfully. My apologies if I haven't always done so.

richard.fleming

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2020, 12:26:57 PM »

Stiamh - I suspect that it is all very complex. Was I younger when I started? Did I somehow have a more useful little finger than others in the first place? Or has the process of learning to play an instrument meant that my nerves and muscles and braincells have developed in certain ways, as have yours? Music is about the body as well as the instrument, isn't it, and we have to take that into account with the box as well as with, say, the saxophone, which is a more extreme example of an instrument than interacts with the body of the player. But I still think that if one is fortunate enough to be able to play fluidly with all four fingers and that it suits one to do so it may put one at an advantage.
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Barlow

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2020, 01:32:47 PM »

[
Quote
Forget that nonsense about only playing with 3 fingers.

Yes - exactly what I thought the first time I heard this apparently absurd suggestion.

The second time I heard it - as a strong recommendation, not a suggestion - I decided to try it. Seriously try it. And there was no going back afterwards.  :|glug

The above is how I experienced starting to play with 3 fingers. (I consider myself a beginner, I am in my 50s.)

It set me back a bit, a week or two, which I was reluctant to do, but well worth the effort in the end. Maybe my subconscious was ready to take over some of my playing anyway (what a feeling that is when you first realise it has happened) but I found that was happening more with 3 fingers.

The little finger is still working, providing balance maybe, and it usually gets the job for the very end of row note. And some occasional high-end harmony

A bit of an extreme illustration, but I see it like a group of mountaineers teaming up to climb Everest. 3 of them strapping 6-footers with bags of experience, with a fourth, a bit of a runt, keen as mustard but nowhere near the physical ability of the others. Do you take him up the mountain because he's there and you may as well use him (well, why wouldn't you), or do you use him for base camp duties, or whatever.

[The new finger for each note is another matter, but one I wish I had gone with at the start. I realise that I will be more-or-less on my own with that one but I am willing to explain how and why I have found it helps].



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Chris Ryall

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2020, 01:46:35 PM »

You are doing the right thing.  3 finger play is entirely possible, but as you improve it is a difficult habit to move on from, this especially wrt left end chording.  The more  you use that 4th digit the cleverer it will become.

Though I'm perhaps fortunate to still have 4 fingers after my attempt at motor mower maintenance? (see other thread;)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 01:48:51 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Barlow

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2020, 02:09:28 PM »

Left hand is a different matter for me, Chris. I am strictly 4 fingers and I have to say every button has its own finger, although occasional bass runs I will do some jiggery pokery.

The 4th finger on the right hand, poor thing, realises it is not 'one of the boys' and does some occasional clever stuff of its own. It can throw in harmony quite nicely when it wants to too!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 02:12:05 PM by Barlow »
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Peadar

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Re: Learning diatonic accordion
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2020, 02:31:08 PM »

I have a fundamental question. I have a B/C button accordion and I've been working on it for a bit over a year, and I've learned a number of songs. My question is fingering patterns. I've been playing these songs and I don't always use the same finger for the same note. It depends on what preceded it and the positions of my fingers at that time. My question is whether I should relearn the songs and use the same finger always for the same note. For example in the key of D, should my index finger always press low D, middle finger for E, and ring finger for F#? I've never taken lessons, just the occasional online video, and I also have a CD. Just wondering if I'm missing a basic concept that should be cleared up while I'm still in the beginning stages.

Thanks - Brian Morris, Rocky Point USA

Absolutely not! The fact that you don't always use the same finger on the same keys says that you are ctually learning the instument as well as individual tunes. You may later find that some tunes can be made to work better with a different fingering but that's another stage in the learning and development process.
It has been said that it takes seven months to learn the pipes and seven years to master them. That's probably true of the melodeon as well.
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