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Author Topic: B/C Melodeon  (Read 10769 times)

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Theo

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2020, 03:56:45 PM »

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Yes it is. And especially since this is a topic started by a beginner looking for guidance on his chosen system.

If you have to preface a post "this may be thread drift"  then please don't do it.  Start a new thread, it doesn't cost! It's just laziness not to.  If you like post a link in the thread that prompted you to think about your own idea.

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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Graham Wood

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2020, 07:00:50 PM »

Thank you all for your valuable and appreciated advice. I have been a musician of sorts since schooldays playing 90% guitar, 5% Keyboard, 3% Blues Harps in various keys and a 5 string banjo (badly). Traditional folk music is a far cry from my previous musical experience but I have certainly cut my teeth with it on acoustic guitar and to be honest I just love the music and the joy it brings to people who listen to it and who play it. It is something I've always wanted to get into but never put my toe in the water beyond guitar accompaniment.

I have a ton of admiration for melodeon players because they can produce great music from essentially what is a limited instrument. I chose B/C because my understanding was that not only is it eminently suitable for Irish/Scottish style of play which is what I like, but it would also give a fighting chance for me to practice improvisation techniques similar to what I learnt on guitar many years ago using initially pentatonic scales. I could be totally wrong in this but I think the B/C box (or any semitone box) would just give me more of a fighting chance when it comes to freedom of expression. It certainly doesn't mean that I will be banging out Led Zeppelin tracks on it, but I think the opportunity for expression is definitely there. ((A long way down the road. (Stairway to Heaven will not be following Captain Pugwash on my list of tunes to master)).

I gather that living in the heart of Suffolk might be an issue with regard to my chosen path and that B/C players might be hard to come by, but I guess music is music and if you can play in various keys then it should not be an issue. It might just take a bit longer to become accomplished to any reasonable degree. I did find this link https://mardles.org which might prove very useful in establishing contact with like minded players. I will investigate that when I can actually play something lol.

Also someone mentioned that my bass side might be the modern layout but I believe it's actually the traditional layout with lots of C's and the D and D+ only available on the pull. It is way too early for me to figure whether this would be a limitation or not, but the melodeon being what it is, I'm sure there will be a way to get round that.

It's great that I've been able to chat with so many good folk on here. I feel that I am in very good company and that's a great feeling to have.

Graham

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Pearse Rossa

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2020, 08:39:03 PM »

Also someone mentioned that my bass side might be the modern layout but I believe it's actually the traditional layout with lots of C's and the D and D+ only available on the pull. It is way too early for me to figure whether this would be a limitation or not, but the melodeon being what it is, I'm sure there will be a way to get round that.

It's modern in that it is set up to accompany the melody being played from the C row, as opposed to the B row.
Notice that you don't have a B chord.
Have a look at this page for more ideas.
As I mentioned earlier, there are other options and preferences.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2020, 08:53:11 PM »


I gather that living in the heart of Suffolk might be an issue with regard to my chosen path and that B/C players might be hard to come by...


I think the point people were making wasn't that living where you are wasn't so much an issue, as an opportunity.
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Greg Smith
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2020, 12:32:56 AM »

...I gather that living in the heart of Suffolk might be an issue with regard to my chosen path and that B/C players might be hard to come by, but I guess music is music and if you can play in various keys then it should not be an issue. It might just take a bit longer to become accomplished to any reasonable degree. I did find this link https://mardles.org which might prove very useful in establishing contact with like minded players. I will investigate that when I can actually play something lol.
Mardles is a good resource!
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Barlow

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2020, 06:05:47 PM »

Some points you might want to consider:

If you have musical knowledge and experience, you might want to start using the bass end almost immediately. This has a particular relevance to the right hand melody anyway. For example, in the key of say D, the E will generally be on the outside row on the pull and will fit in with an A chord/note on the bass end. Whereas in the key of G, the E might fall nicely in with a C chord/bass and will be on the press (inside row).

So to follow on from that and to illustrate, playing the scale of D, the E note would be on the pull (B row). Whereas the scale of G (and C) would use a press E (C row).

A couple of things that might cause a bit of controversy, but none is intended:
Don't use your little finger (although maybe useful later for right hand chords, counter melody etc). Three fingers is plenty.
Change finger for each note (even if two consecutive notes are on the same button).
You will be surprised how acrobatic your fingers will become.
Regarding the above there are arguments and examples of top players doing otherwise. You need to make the decision, but don't fall into playing what seems to be the easiest fingering. Easiest is not always the best way musically, and besides any initial difficulties can be overcome.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 06:21:26 PM by Barlow »
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george garside

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2020, 06:55:19 PM »

  some tunes work fine using 3 fingers others are much easier using 4.  For that reason I would advocate getting the hang of playing with 4 fingers ( where it best suits a particular tune) as soon as possible rather than learing 3 finger playing and later having to adapt a tune to 4 finger playing
george
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Gromit

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2020, 06:58:48 PM »

Quote
Don't use your little finger (although maybe useful later for right hand chords, counter melody etc). Three fingers is plenty.

I'm a B/C 'Irish' player and sometimes use my little finger I find in some situations it's useful

Quote
Change finger for each note (even if two consecutive notes are on the same button).

In the Damien Connolly tutor there are fingering patterns for some tunes, changing finger for each note is not something he advises. Some times you do and sometimes not, whatever's required to get your hand and fingers around the keyboard as efficiently as possible.
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Graham Wood

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2020, 07:06:04 PM »

So to follow on from that and to illustrate, playing the scale of D, the E note would be on the pull (B row). Whereas the scale of G (and C) would use a press E (C row).

Cheers. Yes I did note that B and E are both available on push and pull which got me all excited but it's probably too early yet to be able to effectively exploit that with bass note/chord selection.

I have actually started off trying to use left hand accompaniment with the first tune I'm learning but it's a bit of a struggle with Captain Pugwash. Probably should have chosen something easier to start with. But I'm enjoying the struggle.

I'll admit to having used the little finger on the treble side (and then running out of fingers) but I can't use it on the bass side because I don't seem to have much control over it. I also keep running out of air so I guess bellows management and lots of other things will gradually fall in to place with perseverance and practice.

Once I've actually got it sounding like Captain Pugwash then I might put a video of it up on 'Begginers Showcase' for direction. If the tune doesn't appeal then the bizarre faces I keep pulling whilst playing this thing might be a source of amusement....lol
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2020, 07:32:08 PM »

Change finger for each note (even if two consecutive notes are on the same button).

That's not the first time you've said this, Barlow, but I have to say I think it's a wee bit extreme. Now it's very useful to be able to change fingers when hitting a button for the second or third time, and I do a LOT of it. But to say that you should never hit a button twice with the same finger, or that you should always change fingers on a button when changing bellows direction, is to restrict and even hamper yourself needlessly. IMO.

But I'm with you on the three fingers issue and general finger acrobatics, as you know. And in fact using just two fingers can be very beneficial in fast passages (just look at some of the Italian organetto players in full flight!).

Mike Hirst

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2020, 07:56:54 PM »

Change finger for each note (even if two consecutive notes are on the same button).
You will be surprised how acrobatic your fingers will become.

Whilst I agree with the basic premise of what you are saying, I would share with you a lesson taught to me by Philippe Bruneau in a chance one-to-one meeting over Bertrand Gaillard's stall at St. Chartier some years back.

There is a difference between hitting the same button with sequential (different) fingers  and playing the same triplet or other multiple repeat passage with the same finger. Both are valid and although it is physically more demanding, single finger technique allows greater control and more articulate phrasing.

In my own playing I use both techniques in the sure knowledge that each will give the precise articulation that I desire.
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2020, 08:25:18 PM »

There is a difference between hitting the same button with sequential (different) fingers  and playing the same triplet or other multiple repeat passage with the same finger. Both are valid and although it is physically more demanding, single finger technique allows greater control and more articulate phrasing.

That's funny. I always tell people the reverse - i.e. that you can get far greater control over articulation using two fingers rather than one. Well I think I can anyway. (Not to mention warp-factor speed.)

But I'm no Bruneau!  (:)  :Ph  :|glug

playandteach

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2020, 09:56:13 PM »

In my own playing I use both techniques in the sure knowledge that each will give the precise articulation that I desire.
I look forward to the day when I can use either of those adjectives in a sentence about my playing. Although I have recently been doing some playing of tunes I learnt a while back, and noticed that it is getting better.
On the front of using the little finger, I rarely use it for left hand - though actually I have no issue using it. I do use it on my right hand all the time, but have to be careful to release it early if I'm using fast fingerings involving the ring finger immediately afterwards. For example the tune of the month tune Mal Aimable has a couple of triplets after a high note. The only way for clarity of the triplets (unless I give in to using the first two fingers) is too make sure my ring finger tendon isn't hampered by hanging on to the little finger note before it.
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Jesse Smith

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2020, 11:13:47 PM »

I also keep running out of air so I guess bellows management and lots of other things will gradually fall in to place with perseverance and practice.

The air button is something that just comes with time and practice, and I never found any way to really consciously work at it except to note places in advance where it made sense to remember to grab some extra air (long notes in the direction you need). For a long time, that's about the only air management I did, but after about two years of playing I have discovered that my left hand is just "magically" grabbing a bit of air whenever needed without me consciously planning to do so. So I guess eventually it just becomes second nature!

Another thing is that you tend to play slower when first learning a tune, of course, which uses up more air than you will once you are able to play it faster. So maybe you don't need to worry too much about running out of air until you are playing the tune at close to speed.

(I am assuming without actual experience that the semitone-apart boxes have the same air management issues as single-row and fourth-apart boxes. Hopefully someone will correct me if that's wrong!)
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Jesse Smith

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2020, 11:20:57 PM »

On the front of using the little finger, I rarely use it for left hand - though actually I have no issue using it. I do use it on my right hand all the time, but have to be careful to release it early if I'm using fast fingerings involving the ring finger immediately afterwards. For example the tune of the month tune Mal Aimable has a couple of triplets after a high note. The only way for clarity of the triplets (unless I give in to using the first two fingers) is too make sure my ring finger tendon isn't hampered by hanging on to the little finger note before it.

I think Barlow's and Stiamh's comments regarding using three fingers are intended specifically to apply to playing Irish music on a semitone box. For English tunes where I use lots of right-hand harmony stuff, I would be lost without all four fingers, though like you have trouble with fast triplets (or just ornamental "twiddles") using the 3rd and 4th fingers and will shift my hand to play those on lower pair of fingers. Although maybe with some dedicated practice I could strengthen those muscles and develop better independence (but I think some of that is purely anatomical and can't be helped).
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Barlow

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2020, 09:41:04 AM »

Change finger for each note (even if two consecutive notes are on the same button).

That's not the first time you've said this, Barlow, but I have to say I think it's a wee bit extreme. Now it's very useful to be able to change fingers when hitting a button for the second or third time, and I do a LOT of it. But to say that you should never hit a button twice with the same finger, or that you should always change fingers on a button when changing bellows direction, is to restrict and even hamper yourself needlessly. IMO.
It is extreme and maybe unusual and something that I rarely see, but I found it particularly liberating after playing what would seem the logical/obvious way ie using the same finger for consecutive notes because that finger happens to be on that button. It's not something I would necessarily advocate but it works for me. I have tried going back to the other way but it just seems somehow wrong and I grind to a halt.

Same with the drop the fourth finger thing. Simple and obvious logic says "why would you not use something that is there, you are restricting yourself". I wish I had learnt with just 3 fingers earlier. Of course though, the fourth finger is more than useful/necessary for multi-note playing, but that is more advanced, and I suggest when that time comes the poor forgotten thing will be there waiting to serve after all this time of doing not a lot.

I do appreciate that these points are subjective and individual to a player but they should be considered.

One particular tip I would give to a beginner is to read through this whole section of the forum. It will take a while over a few days in total but reading it is ideal for such as waiting at airports/long train journeys/waiting rooms etc! Most of it may not be relevant but there will be nuggets of advice that will strike the proverbial chords.





« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 01:17:37 PM by Barlow »
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2020, 02:25:40 PM »

... you might want to start using the bass end almost immediately. This has a particular relevance to the right hand melody anyway. For example, in the key of say D, the E will generally be on the outside row on the pull and will fit in with an A chord/note on the bass end. Whereas in the key of G, the E might fall nicely in with a C chord/bass and will be on the press (inside row).

So to follow on from that and to illustrate, playing the scale of D, the E note would be on the pull (B row). Whereas the scale of G (and C) would use a press E (C row).

A practical and to me counter-intuitive illustration. I received a note through another place from a beginner who told me he was trying to tackle Davy-Davy Knick-Knack on his B/C box along with other English tunes he played in a former life as a fiddle player before an accident that damaged his left hand. I have not yet advised him to do what many people here would immediately suggest, i.e. take up the D/G  >:E (although I might yet :|glug) but this morning I found myself wondering how that tune (which I played hundreds of times in a former life as a fiddle player in an English dance band ;) ) would lie on the B/C box.

Now, since it's in the key of G, the only note you are obliged to fetch from the outer row is F#. But there are a lot of Bs in the tune, for which you have a choice.

Trying the melody first, I quickly decided that the best flow and phrasing would be obtained by taking the Bs in the first two bars on the inner row (in blue below), and those in the next two bars on the outer row (in red).

GF GA B2 B2 |GF GA B2 B2 |dc Bc A2 A2 |dc Bc A2 A2|

However, when adding basses I equally quickly realised that to make the basses work (using only the top outer G/D chord pair) I had to reverse my scheme completely and use the outer-row B for the blue notes and the inner-row B for the red ones.

In this case the difference in the flow and phrasing is fairly trivial, even if I think my initial scheme has the edge. But when you get to Em Irish tunes that are chock full of both Bs and Es, and where you have an E chord on the push only, it does become significant. Playing the melody only, many of those tunes flow much more easily using the pull E and B, but if you want to use basses, you have to do the reverse a lot of the time, which is frankly more awkward, bellows-wise :||:. Try Cooley's Reel both ways and you'll soon see what I mean.

[enter George to explain for the 189th time that stradella basses are a better choice for the B/C]

Tiposx

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2020, 02:35:34 PM »

The basses on my b/c and c#/d are still gathering dust whilst my right hand tries to keep up.
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george garside

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2020, 02:52:38 PM »

For davy knick nack on a BC box I use 4 fingers on the treble  3 on the C row and first finger on the B row  (but then I don't need to play the treble in a way that facilitates the bass as even my double ray has 12 stradella ( as someone has just alluded to!)

As to how many fingers to use on a BC  I think it depends entirely on the particular tune being played or even the particular part of a particular tune being played at any particular time.  There are no hard and fast 'rules' nor should there be - just experiment using 2,3 or 4 fingers  and go with whatever you feel works best  .eg in the tune harvest home I use 2, 3 and 4 fingers for different parts of the tune  and find that using 2 fingers  for the first part of the fast 'run down' works best FOR ME . Others my find a different choice of fingers better. 

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Pearse Rossa

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Re: B/C Melodeon
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2020, 06:13:50 PM »

I'll admit to having used the little finger on the treble side...

You make that sound like a confession, something to feel guilty about.
My advice is, by all means, use your little finger if it works for you.
Using all four fingers will lead to better fluidity in your playing eventually.
It would be daft to instruct a beginner on banjo or fiddle, for instance, not to use their little finger.
Why would it be any different on the box?


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