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Author Topic: Seeking advice on starting up a session  (Read 5302 times)

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Alan Pittwood

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2020, 12:31:30 PM »

slow English dirge types of tunes

New year, new decade: first sighting?  Will there be a Mallinson tune book to support this new trend?
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Winston Smith

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2020, 12:49:31 PM »

"slow English dirge types of tunes"

I'm now sorry that I used that throw away phrase, although I never imagined that it would detract from Jesse's thread! It was an attempt to describe some English folk music in a similar way to which some foreign folk sometimes do; that's all.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2020, 01:02:27 PM »

Having danced at the Marlboro Ale in Vermont, and around Boston and Syracuse, there is a niche Morris scene in pockets around the north, but the US is a very large country and travelling to meet up with such people is a long haul.
There might be Morris nearby? It would be worth asking the Boston contingent to see if they have connections in Ohio.
I suspect Google is your friend!
Q
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richard.fleming

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2020, 01:15:39 PM »

I find the idea of unspoken 'rules' on what to play rather at odds with the whole point of enjoying playing and listening to music. 
/quote]

I think the unwritten rules of sessions are one of their strengths - a set of conventions distilled from views shared by everyone which prevent conflict and ensure people display good manners when they play together. As for Irish sessions, apart from the fact that the Irish in exile probably invented the session as we know it, a reason to have a session that is all-Irish is that a lifetime is not enough for learning to play this music. I like other music but life is a bit too short to play it all. I suppose if you are playing English traditional music this might not apply as it is in general very simple and very easy to play, but by the same token some might find that boring.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2020, 01:56:02 PM »

Richard, an interesting observation that English music is simple and boring.
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this. The only parallels I can think of is the influence of the Northumbrian Pipers Society who have nurtured the playing of their pipes and consolidated their respective music.

English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia. In the early 1970's, 1972 I think, the Old Swan Band issued their 'No Reels' lp as to them, all folk music here tended to be Celtic as reflected in the bands, Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span.

My point being, with Old Swan, Flowers and Frolics and New Victory, in the early '70's all of a sudden they were playing English music, dragged up by it's bootlaces.
People realised that the written tunes were simple, as that was just the skeleton to hang the tune on. Playing the same simple tune for ~ 15mins, and the Hardys in Dorset did meant the tune morphed improvised and wasn't the simple written down tune.
But.... we have had to learn this as we had no societies to teach us.
The standard of playing has increased exponentially.
We have discovered a lot of manuscripts of old tunes that are complex and definitely not simple in any form.
Without the organisations available to support English music, it has had to learn and grow by itself.
...and it has.
Q
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richard.fleming

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2020, 02:24:17 PM »

A very measured response. Thank you. Yes, I agree, the English revival has thrived in spite of initial disadvantages, one maybe having been initially tied to simplified printed sources, another being the lack of a tradition of ornamentation and development of the tunes, and another, dare I say it, being the imposition of the DG melodeon on the reviving tradition which seems to have led to an unfortunate preoccupation with loading the music with bass and chord accompaniments rather than developing the melody itself. I don't know why DG players usually have such a loud left hand, but they seem to, and in my view it usually detracts from rather than enhances the tune.
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2020, 02:34:21 PM »

Lots of great food for thought here - thanks!!

I don't want to belabor the "Irish vs English" thing, other than to say that there's a weekly Irish session in town that has been running for over 15 years, so my feeling is they've got that repertoire covered already.

I agree with Richard that I don't have the experience or repertoire to lead a very public session. I think I'm hoping to be more of an "organizer" or "facilitator" than a "leader".

Greg makes a nice suggestion, of places that are not quite as public as a pub but not as private as someone's home. There are places around here that rent space for community groups. Bars/taverns often have "banquet rooms" for private parties, etc.

Q - there's a small Morris group an hour's drive east of here, along with an English Country Dance group, and a melodeon/concertina "button box club". Syracuse (three hour's drive) has a quite healthy Morris scene the last time I checked. But as a married fellow with young kids, it's hard for me to go gallivanting off on long road trips, and so I am hoping to cultivate my own garden.

I think in the end I'm going to have to sneak into some of the "musically adjacent" groups around here - the Irish sessions, the Old Time fiddle jam, the contra dances - and try to rustle up some interest. Of course, I don't want to come off like I'm "poaching" people from other groups, either...
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george garside

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2020, 02:57:42 PM »

[quote author=richard.flemi ;)

probably because they don't lift fingers off the bass buttons to create a pause between the UM and the PA.  Shortening the bass notes and chords  by simly by getting some freash air between fingers and buttons effectively makes the bass sound less obtrusive.

george >:E
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2020, 02:59:59 PM »

Jesse, I quite understand that at times in our life we need to look to our own.
It might well be worth keeping an eye on morris tours in case some come close to your home. Taking the kids out to watch something different might kill two birds with one stone  (:)

I think having a look at the established sessions locally is a good move. A quick chat between tunes might mean you meet others of a similar ilk to yourself. You never know!
Q
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Clawhammer

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2020, 03:30:14 PM »

I agree with Winston re: not getting to prickly about the distinction between "Irish" and "English" tunes.  I'm here in the MidWest US and have an area monthly "Irish" section in which one character refuses to play proposed "Northumbrian" or tune that seem to be getting played all over the UK.  What a world.  Best Wishes in New York!  Bill
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Tufty

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2020, 04:22:35 PM »

, a reason to have a session that is all-Irish is that a lifetime is not enough for learning to play this music. I like other music but life is a bit too short to play it all. I suppose if you are playing English traditional music this might not apply as it is in general very simple and very easy to play, but by the same token some might find that boring.
Why do some people have this urge to slag off music that they don't play? Why not accept that what you happen to like is not necessarily better than what someone else enjoys? Just different. Myself I enjoy playing English, French and Irish music but make my apologies and leave when a session develops into not stop Irish reels. I find them boring but that is my problem, not the fault of the music. They just all sound the same to me. Regarding getting sessions going I would recommend starting in peoples' homes to start with, less stressful than a room full of strangers!
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2020, 04:29:26 PM »

There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this....
English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia.

You're not seriously suggesting that it has all been plain sailing for Irish music?
Under British rule in Ireland, we were denied our culture, language, religion, civil liberties, land ownership, voting rights, right to education, right to employment, etc.
Throw in the attempts at genocide and it's a miracle we survived at all as a race, never mind the fact that our music has.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2020, 05:06:13 PM »

Tufty, you have put your finger on it.  I am afraid it is what a few people sometimes do, and it's unpleasant when it happens at a session.  I've no objection to clubs setting whatever spoken rules they like, as I say.  But if the rules are unspoken by the club organisers, then to criticise another musician who happens to transgress them through ignorance, or in the name of variety, is not on.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2020, 06:22:15 PM »

Pearse I totally agree with your summing up, we have treated Ireland and their people appallingly for centuries. That is without question.
I was merely trying to make the point that their musical culture has survived through being organised and having formal teaching. Consequently it has evolved and is in great shape.

English music has none of those benefits, it was almost lost. To my deep sadness we put absolutely no credence or worth on our cultural heritage, whether it be traditional music or tradition dance.
Ask any Morris dancer, who if admitting Morris dancing  as their hobby to a stranger gets a smirk or snigger as a normal response.
In other parts of Europe, Ireland included, me as a Morris dancer has treated with respect and respect.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Graham Spencer

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2020, 06:53:19 PM »


English music has none of those benefits, it was almost lost. To my deep sadness we put absolutely no credence or worth on our cultural heritage, whether it be traditional music or tradition dance.
Ask any Morris dancer, who if admitting Morris dancing  as their hobby to a stranger gets a smirk or snigger as a normal response.
In other parts of Europe, Ireland included, me as a Morris dancer has treated with respect and respect.
Q

I  couldn't agree more; Cyprus Morris is entering its 12th year, and we have established excellent relations with Cypriot dance groups and other cultural organisations who had never realised that England had any traditions other than dawn-to-dusk drinking and treating other nationalities with disdain.  We are warmly welcomed at the local festivities we attend and enjoy the respect of our fellow upholders of a national tradition.

Graham
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2020, 11:27:30 PM »

Pearse I totally agree with your summing up...

I acknowledge and appreciate your conciliatory words.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2020, 11:55:13 PM »

I suppose this is all to do with Britain's imperial past. Ireland (for example) reacted against oppression by trying to protect and support its culture in defiance of Britain's attempts to suppress it; the English part of Great Britain had no such motivation. Whereas Ireland massively supported indigenous culture (language, music, dance etc) after independence, in England this was left to amateurs such as the English Folk Dance and Song Society. There was no political will such as there was in Ireland.
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Peadar

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2020, 02:34:47 AM »

I suppose this is all to do with Britain's imperial past. Ireland (for example) reacted against oppression by trying to protect and support its culture in defiance of Britain's attempts to suppress it; the English part of Great Britain had no such motivation. Whereas Ireland massively supported indigenous culture (language, music, dance etc) after independence, in England this was left to amateurs such as the English Folk Dance and Song Society. There was no political will such as there was in Ireland.
If one cross checks the Time Lines of The English Folk Dance and Song Society, Conradh na Gaeilge and An Comunn Gaidhealach I think you will find they were all established circa 1890. What is more significant in English national terms is the presence/lack of Royal Patronage. England has an RSPCA and an EFDSS, but Scotland has an SSPCCA and a RSCDS.
There are massive differences in the musical journeys of Irish and English music.
Unlike Irish, where I believe there has been a history of teaching and musical competitions, English has had none of this....
English all but died out save little pockets of old musicians in places like Dartmoor and East Anglia.

You're not seriously suggesting that it has all been plain sailing for Irish music?
Under British rule in Ireland, we were denied our culture, language, religion, civil liberties, land ownership, voting rights, right to education, right to employment, etc.
Throw in the attempts at genocide and it's a miracle we survived at all as a race, never mind the fact that our music has.
In the Scottish context all of the above is also true of the Gaidhlig and of the Gaidheal (Gaidhlig= the language, Gaidheal= the people). In the context of the United Kingdom...Buidheachas do Dhia!!!! I have just heard Mary Lou MacDonald of Sinn Fein on Radio 4 Newsnight announcing "We now have Acht na Gaelige". Tha mi air feitheamh corr is fichead bliadhna an naidheachd sin a chluintinn! And just for the record- the Gaelic language is every bit as much the heritage of Irish Unionists as it is of Irish nationalists...sadly a heritage which became alien to vast majority of the Unionist population in the early 20th century.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 10:56:10 PM by Peadar »
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Roger Hare

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2020, 05:40:13 AM »

Looks like we're drifting away from Jesse's question...
Notatall. I've been wondering about the possibility of trying to start a small, local session for
a while, and some of the suggestions here have been very helpful. I've even got a possible
venue (with proper beer!🍺)...

...Build a base of like minded people.
Finding them might prove problematic in your location....?
...but I fear that this may indeed be the major problem, even in an area with a large population.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 07:10:32 AM by Roger Hare »
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Howard Jones

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Re: Seeking advice on starting up a session
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2020, 08:45:12 AM »

Given the turn this discussion has taken, I feel a need to point out that the "anything but Irish" aspect of English music sessions is not based on any anti-Irish sentiment.  Many of us enjoy both forms, some play both, or like myself started out playing Irish music before discovering our own musical heritage.

The reason is partly historical.  When the English Country Music revival began a traditional music session in England almost always meant Irish music.  For the nascent ECM revival to develop and thrive in this environment English sessions had to distinguish themselves from the others.  There was no lack of opportunities to play Irish music, but these early English sessions could easily have been overwhelmed and the revival stifled before it got going.

Now that English music is well-established that perhaps no longer applies.  However there is another, more practical reason - despite their many similarities the two aren't really compatible.  This may be due to the different session cultures - ITM tends to be more disciplined, you are expected to have learned the tunes beforehand and play them in a particular way.  English sessions can be more like jam sessions, and often the enjoyment comes from seeing how a tune can be developed by musicians bouncing ideas off each other, and sometimes considerable liberties are taken with the original.  Although the instruments may be the same, the playing styles are different.  D/G melodeon isn't widely used for Irish music.  I also play concertina, but to play it Irish-style would mean relearning the instrument from scratch.  Even fiddle styles are different.

In my experience mixed sessions generally don't work.  The players of Irish music (the majority of whom are English) generally don't attempt to join in with the English tunes, perhaps because they haven't learned them beforehand.  When their opportunity comes, they launch into interminable sets of fast reels from which the English players feel excluded.  If they do try to join in, the Irish players may be unhappy that they are not playing the tune "just so", or worse are taking liberties with it.  It ends up as a competition between different groups, which is the opposite of what a session should be.  Far better that both groups keep to their own sessions.

French and Scandinavian tunes are more easily assimilated into English sessions, but they tend to be played in an English style and maybe if there were a large number of authentic French and Scandinavian musicians trying to play them correctly then a similar conflict would arise.
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