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Author Topic: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box  (Read 1822 times)

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heartshaped1

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2020, 05:31:10 PM »

I have had and still have both two and three voice instruments and currently own a Mory having stepped up from a Hascy just over a year ago. It is a substantially bigger and heavier box, and that’s just the way it is. The jump up wasn’t the easiest thing to do. I like the ability to switch voices and also the fact that on the Mory you can just have the single L or single M Reed sounding which is different to many boxes with two voices and a third low voice you can simply switch in or out. I like the way the two voice MM sounds on the Mory but you (or certainly I) can’t chuck it round like you would do a smaller box. I have a different box for Morris!
However there is another, unexpected benefit with the Mory that I hadn’t really considered when I got it in that the larger bellows and heavier bass end allow some really powerful playing, it has a lot more ‘oomph’ than a smaller frame box which has also been fun to explore.

Having said all that, I have a Lilium, and that, for me, is the best of all worlds!

Vicky
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G/C/Acc VanDerAa, D/G/Acc Hohner Lucia, D/G Pariselle, D/G Castagnari Mory, G/C Castagnari Lilium, C/F Hohner Club I, D/G Hohner Pokerwork

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2020, 06:11:52 PM »

Here's a simple Experiment I did earlier with a Salterelle Berry... Take out the centre reedblock (Low octave set)...play the instrument in 2-voice mode. Re-insert the reedblock and play again in 2-voice mode....

Here's a link to the recording ... And there is a noticeable difference.

https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2/salterelle-berry-effect-of-removing-centre-reed-block-on-2-voice-tone

With the reedblock out (first 22 seconds) the sound is fuller and more sonorous. With the centre reedblock replaced (next 22 seconds), the volume is slightly diminished and the tone is much more 'top-end', or brighter.
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In my experience, the best 3-voice melodeons (and your Beltuna Sara3 is a great example) don't offer a sound that is necessarily 'the same' as (eg) a Beltuna Sara 2, but is a 2-voice sound that has its own quality.
Very interesting Mike, and a good demonstration recording of the two different states! The difference is indeed audible in your recording, but, we know in advance to listen out for it. However, I wonder how many otherwise uninformed listeners would pick up these sorts of subtle differences, say in a performance situation? Not many, if any, I would guess.

Ultimately I suppose it's very much a personal thing. I love the sound and flexibility of a three-voice box, especially when using the L-reed switched in and playing in the upper octave of the keyboard (on a D/G box). I'm therefore prepared to accept a very slight compromise on the MM sound for the sake of having the LMM box with all its extra sound qualities.
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arty

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2020, 07:32:21 PM »

When it comes to the mechanics of a box, I am a complete numpty and, if I was to be completely honest, I would have to admit that it doesn't interest me at all. My only interest is in learning to play the damn thing and the sound that I can get out of it!

Having said that, I read with great interest, what Mike has described and listened to the sound sample, where the difference is noticeable if not glaringly obvious. So thank you for all that Mike, I feel better informed now! Also, Steve's input, as usual, is very relevant and helpful and only makes me wish I lived in the UK, so that I could visit people like Pete at Acorn easily, to try these things out. Thanks also to Gena, Heartshaped1, Q et al

The thing is, I have been playing for 7 years now, I love my 2 row boxes and I know that I don't want to go to a two and a half row, because I have tried and I didn't find it suited me. A 2 row is the only true diatonic box and I love it's simplicity and it's restrictions. Also, I am 71 years old now and, while I am fit and able, I don't think it is the best age to be taking on a heavier instrument.

Just a few weeks ago, I bought a Beltuna Sara 3 voice A/D and that is what has got me thinking a lot. I am really enjoying the 3 voices and being able to change the sound completely, to suit the piece I am playing. When the 3 voices are all playing, the sound is wonderful and I can feel it vibrating in my chest as I play. But when I take out the low note, leaving just the MM, the sound takes on a completely different character. It is sweet and very pure, remarkably so, I think. It is beautiful and the higher notes have a bell-like quality to them quite unlike the sound that comes out of my Castagnari. It is more pure, less raspy. Wonderful.

So, this is the reason I have been thinking about why the quality/character of the sound changes so much when I change from 3 voice to 2 and how lovely it would be to have an instrument where the buttons to alter the sound were as readily accessible as they are on instruments such as the Trilly. Of course, so much depends on the type of music one plays. One of my great loves is Stephane Delicq and for that, my Castagnari Laura is perfect, so I will never change that. It is all very interesting!

Thanks all  (:)
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2020, 08:22:51 PM »

I'm very happy with the sound of my Pariselle box, both as 2 voice and 3.
It's heavier than the pokerwork, but I only really notice after I've finished playing.
It's pretty dry but the 2 voice sound to me is very sweet. I did the Christmas theme of the month on 2 voice as I thought it more appropriate.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2020, 08:58:00 PM »

I remember Steve saying he was unimpressed by the early Trillies.  I had tried to order a Lillium, having once blagged a go on Rees' one and having loved it.  In the end my order got converted to the Trilly and I wasn't at all disappointed.  It was a completely different beast to the Lillium I had tried, probably a bit drier tuned and if you leant into the bellows it was so loud it felt like your ears were being attacked with a chisel!  Surprisingly, it would also play soft and sweet - notably with a very clear sound, not at all muffled.  Indeed as a two-voice it was quite convincing, though I preferred to use the bandoneon setting usually.

Since the Trilly was stolen, I was lucky enough to find a second hand 1914 which is indeed a nice box, but lacks that extra fortissimo capability and the overall tone is not as clear, slightly "boxy".  I an told that Pete has said that when the case of the Trilly was restyled using the angular grille rather than the original curved one, the fondo was changed from aluminium to wood and the sound is now very similar to that of the 1914.

Rob.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2020, 10:25:44 PM »

I've found this a really good thoughtful thread, thanks to arty for starting it and all who've added their thoughts.

A comment leaping out to me is from Mike who makes the point that a 3v is different.
i.e. not better or worse, just different.
A good point.

The only way I can resolve for me is to spend time with Pete and try the boxes mentioned, something on my mind when life settles down for me in the future.
Cheers
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

pete /acorn

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2020, 07:12:04 AM »

Since the Trilly was stolen, I was lucky enough to find a second hand 1914 which is indeed a nice box, but lacks that extra fortissimo capability and the overall tone is not as clear, slightly "boxy".  I an told that Pete has said that when the case of the Trilly was restyled using the angular grille rather than the original curved one, the fondo was changed from aluminium to wood and the sound is now very similar to that of the 1914.

There seems to be some confusion here ,the grill material was changed from veneered aluminium to wood
This change took place when laser cutting was installed
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2020, 08:32:45 AM »

Since the Trilly was stolen, I was lucky enough to find a second hand 1914 which is indeed a nice box, but lacks that extra fortissimo capability and the overall tone is not as clear, slightly "boxy".  I an told that Pete has said that when the case of the Trilly was restyled using the angular grille rather than the original curved one, the fondo was changed from aluminium to wood and the sound is now very similar to that of the 1914.
Sorry to learn that your Trilly was stolen, Rob. But puzzled that your replacement 1914 'lacks that extra fortissimo capability and the overall tone is not as clear, slightly "boxy"'. Not sure what you mean by 'slightly boxy'. All I can say is that my own 1914 and the others which I have tried are superb instruments.
I used to have a D/G Lilium which I kept for 15 years and swore I would never ever part with it, it was that good. But I tried the 1914 and was so impressed I bought it on the spot, and soon afterwards I sold my Lilium. The 1914 definitely has the edge in terms of sound, and is far more flexible in terms of the keyboard layout and stops/grille switches arrangement.

But for whatever reasons, maybe I got an exceptionally good one and perhaps you one which was not so good.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2020, 12:44:06 PM »

I think you're right.  These models are all near enough top of the range and can be expected to display small variations in a way you wouldn't detect in lesser instruments.  It may well be that my Trilly was exceptional (though some didn't like it) and my 1914 is more run of the mill.  As I have a Dino /Oakwood that Steve fettled and which others would bite my hand off to swap for their examples of the same box, I know he recognises and appreciates even the most subtle differences one encounters!

Rob.
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Rog

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2020, 03:33:13 AM »

I didn’t like the two voice MM setting on my LMM Nuage and played it with all the stops out. The MM was tuned with a slight tremolo and it sounded thin and unappealing. So I tweaked the MM tuning, to make it considerably wetter. It transformed the box and now it gets played as much in MM as LMM. In LMM mode it’s quite loud so I often remove the L now when playing with other musicians.

playandteach

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2020, 10:43:47 AM »

I like the 2 voice setting on my Sander, and only using the 3 voice if I'm playing higher up the box, transposing French music.
I've also tried taking out the low reed block, and didn't actually notice a difference in weight or in sound. I do play with 2 straps and hardly any bellows reversal - so that might explain why the weight makes little difference, but the similarity in sound surprised me. I do have fairly dry tuning - could it make more difference on tremolo tunings where there might be different overtone requirements?
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mselic

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Re: Sound of 3 voice box on MM setting compared to 2 voice MM box
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2020, 06:40:54 PM »

This issue is even more prominent with a 4-stop box.  Even with treble springs lightened to match those of a 2-voice instrument, I've never found the sound and response of a 4-stop played in MM to quite equal that of a 2-voice instrument. 
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