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Author Topic: One row tunes  (Read 3666 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2020, 12:05:10 PM »

Another fingering question:
The A section of Mockingbird Hill - can I have some suggestions? Here's the problem... I'm taking my two row approach using my little finger to the one row - which I don't want to do, but it seems so appropriate for the arpeggio sections of the tune. If I'm not careful I'll end up making the one row sound too smooth, in which case the only point to learning it is for bellows control - so can I have some fingering options.

Fingering is sometimes a matter of personal taste. But here's my suggestion for the opening rising arpeggio in bar 1:
D - 1st, F# - 1st, A - 2nd, D' - 3rd, F#' - 4th; then use the same fingers for the descending arpeggio in bar 2. 

You will notice that I have indicated a 1st finger jump between the D and F#; something which is sometimes frowned upon. But here it works (a) because you need a finger/hand jump somewhere in bars 1 and 2, and (b) where I have indicated it helps define the phrase, so it is not smeared out into a smooth arpeggio. When you get round to putting an oom-pah-pah LH accompaniment in, the first 'pah' on beat 2 helps normalise any slight lumpiness. (as if taking a fraction of breath if you were playing it on clarinet ;))

Quote
Second problem is the triplet upbeat. It sounds like a clown car. Is that because I'm not lifting my finger between the C# and the D?
The triplet as written needs a rapid pull-push-pull on the bellows. It helps if your fingering is crisp and yes, just a hint of lifting between the C# and the D - the barest lift, hardly enough to release the finger from the button. But it also helps if your instrument is set up to its optimum, with all the valves working perfectly and the reed tip gap just right. 

A perfectly acceptable 'fudge' for a one-row would be to abandon the triplets and play those upbeats as two pull quavers C# and E. It hardly loses anything melodically and the resulting lack of awkwardness on the one-row more than makes up for the missing D. (:)
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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2020, 12:30:55 PM »

Is there anyone willing to pick some tunes (any style at all) in D and finger them for me? I'm really after people who consider themselves one row players - or at least dyed in the wool on the row players. I don't at all mind if you are from a 2 or 3 finger standpoint - I can probably work out my own 4 finger versions - but that might be too close to the way I already play, and I'm looking to learn.
Try the attached tune with fingerrings added...


Extra information added post-corruption problem:

Before the posts disappeared, I think you previously queried my choice of fingering of 1,1 for the second beats of bars 2 and 4, also bars 21 and 23, which involves a 1st finger jump to the adjacent button. The reason I do this is so that I then have the same fingering pattern for bars 3 and 5, and bars 22 and 24, involving less of a stretch from the 1st beat crotchet G to the 2nd beat quaver E'.
But your fingering (which I think I understood to be 1,2) works too of course and if you prefer that, all well and good.

I think one of the almost subconcious things which drives my fingering choices is that I always like to maintain my four fingers hovering over an octave stretch of four buttons, so that I can instantly play a push RH triad chord plus the upper octave note, when I want to embelish the melody with extra notes in the chord (easier to demonstrate than to explain :Ph).
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george garside

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2020, 12:50:49 PM »

[q

Extra information added post-corruption problem:

 

I think one of the almost subconcious things which drives my fingering choices is that I always like to maintain my four fingers hovering over an octave stretch of four buttons, so that I can instantly play a push RH triad chord plus the upper octave note, when I want to embelish the melody with extra notes in the chord (easier to demonstrate than to explain :Ph).

seconded!

george
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Stiamh

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2020, 02:57:32 PM »

Not a one-row player but on C#/D I spend rather a lot of my time on the D row. Being able to play full triads + 1 is not a concern of mine, so here is an alternative fingering of the first line from someone whose main preoccupation is being able to play fast and reliably using the stronger fingers. 


D3 F AD | f3 d AF | G3 B dg | b6 | a3 g ec | A4 (3cde | f3 e dB |A4
1  2 12   3  2 21   1  2 12   3    3  3 22   1    223   3  3 21  1


If the triplet is difficult, perhaps the issue is one of bellows control. The trick I learned early on - a iightbulb moment indeed - from Sabin Jacques (top one-row player) is to keep the front bottom edge of the bellows closed and acting as a sort of a hinge. If you get the hang of this you'll have no problems with in-and-out triplets.
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playandteach

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2020, 03:29:31 PM »

Thanks Stiamh, just tried that and it makes the control better, but the clown sound is I think not releasing the button between the notes. It causes an ugly attack.
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tirpous

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2020, 03:50:55 PM »

Another option would be to change the triplet from c#de to c#eg so that it's all pull notes.
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playandteach

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2020, 10:01:34 PM »

Ok, another question: Peter Wyper's hornpipe -the triplet scalic passage in bar 4 -
I find that if I don't switch fingers on the E-F# back comes the car horn, but if I neglect to do it further down the scale it sounds ok.
1 What is a good fingering for this bar? Currently trying a few, and the best compromise seems to be 323, 232, 232, 121 (mainly switching fingers, but not in the middle - bad form?)
2 Is it my box (which is very nice and well set up - playing it on the D row of my Sander at the moment)?
3 Are higher notes more in need of finger switches in general for this reason?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 10:11:19 PM by playandteach »
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Stiamh

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2020, 10:14:28 PM »

Ok, another question: Peter Wyper's hornpipe -the triplet scalic passage in bar 4 -
I find that if I don't switch fingers on the E-F# back comes the car horn, but if I neglect to do it further down the scale it sounds ok.
1 What is a good fingering for this bar?
2 Is it my box (which is very nice and well set up - playing it on the D row of my Sander at the moment)?
3 Are higher notes more in need of finger switches in general for this reason?

Pete, when you talk of "clown" sounds and car horn sounds I can only guess that you are yanking the bellows unduly to produce these noises (I think we need a demonstration). I don't see what difference a finger switch would make to the sound unless you are somehow doing something to change the air flow as you change fingers.

That is a very common passage and I see no need for fancy fingering. I would start with my ring finger on efe and probably make no switches until I got to the G, at which point I would shift my middle finger down onto the G button.

Another way of doing it would be to bring your ring finger down to play the first A.

I tend to doubt that it's your box. I think it's probably you :P  And I don't see why higher notes would need more finger switches.
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george garside

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2020, 10:16:16 PM »

the simple approach to  getting used to fingering the upper octave 'on the row' is to practice scales  over both octaves. When that can be done without conscious thought  the 'fingering' of particular tunes should readily fall into place without much /any thought.  To me this is far preferable to thinking in terms of 'best?) fingering for particular parts of particular tunes.

The push/ pull sequence is axactly the same for both octaves  - blow/suck   blow/suck   blow/suck  suck/blow.   IN the lower octave the blow/sucks take placae on same  button whereas in the upper octave they are on adjacent buttons and 5 rather than 4 buttons are needed to produce the upper scale

george
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tirpous

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2020, 10:38:55 PM »

Quote
the simple approach to  getting used to fingering the upper octave 'on the row' is to practice scales  over both octaves. When that can be done without conscious thought  the 'fingering' of particular tunes should readily fall into place without much /any thought.  To me this is far preferable to thinking in terms of 'best?) fingering for particular parts of particular tunes.

One does not prevent the other.  Granted, scales help to become familiar with which button/bellows direction combination provides a given note, but the best finger to use for that note in the context of a tune is not necessarily the finger you would use in a scale. 
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playandteach

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2020, 10:42:56 PM »

the simple approach to  getting used to fingering the upper octave 'on the row' is to practice scales  over both octaves. When that can be done without conscious thought  the 'fingering' of particular tunes should readily fall into place without much /any thought.  To me this is far preferable to thinking in terms of 'best?) fingering for particular parts of particular tunes.
george
Certainly practising scales over two octaves now, but finding that a straight up and down scale doesn't necessarily present the same issues as scales that turn around on themselves. Also still not sure whether those reversals without changing the finger need lifted fingers between bellows changes. This is just the way I learn - needing to understand something from a range of options rather than trying stuff out without the understanding.
EDIT I think I overlapped with Tirpous making the same point.
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playandteach

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2020, 10:51:57 PM »

[

Pete, when you talk of "clown" sounds and car horn sounds I can only guess that you are yanking the bellows unduly to produce these noises (I think we need a demonstration). I don't see what difference a finger switch would make to the sound unless you are somehow doing something to change the air flow as you change fingers.

That is a very common passage and I see no need for fancy fingering. I would start with my ring finger on efe and probably make no switches until I got to the G, at which point I would shift my middle finger down onto the G button.

Another way of doing it would be to bring your ring finger down to play the first A.

I tend to doubt that it's your box. I think it's probably you :P  And I don't see why higher notes would need more finger switches.
It's a tiny but noticeable difference in attack to the F#. I'll do a recording when I get a moment, but I don't know if you'll hear it on camera. The ABA bellows change certainly is more acceptable than the EF#E, but it's also fine to accept that this is part of the one row nature for me. As long as the accepted practice is not to lift fingers on these fairly rapid changes (at my level).
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playandteach

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2020, 10:53:29 PM »


Pete, when you talk of "clown" sounds and car horn sounds I can only guess that you are yanking the bellows unduly to produce these noises (I think we need a demonstration). I don't see what difference a finger switch would make to the sound unless you are somehow doing something to change the air flow as you change fingers.

That is a very common passage and I see no need for fancy fingering.
I tend to doubt that it's your box. I think it's probably you :P  And I don't see why higher notes would need more finger switches.
It's a tiny but noticeable difference in attack to the F#. I'll do a recording when I get a moment, but I don't know if you'll hear it on camera. The ABA bellows change certainly is more acceptable than the EF#E, but it's also fine to accept that this is part of the one row nature for me. As long as the accepted practice is not to lift fingers on these fairly rapid changes (at my level).
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Stiamh

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2020, 11:12:59 PM »

I wonder if your hornpipe rhythm might be creating or adding to the problem. To play hornpipes properly (or at least, the way I play hornpipes like the one you posted  ;) ) the dotting indicated in the notation is wrong. I would want a sort of ternary rhythm where the first note in a pair is approximately twice the length of the second, not three times the length as when dotted. (You occasionally see hornpipes of this kind written in 12/8 with crotchet-quaver pairs.)

This carries over into the rhythm of the cascading triplets. You don't want (or at least, I wouldn't want) to make the three notes even in weight. In the case of your ef#e triplet, for example, the first e gets the main attack, the f# gets barely anything, and the last e a tad more.

Getting the right rhythm (or at least what I consider the right rhythm for this piece) might make everything easier...

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playandteach

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2020, 11:22:47 PM »

I wonder if your hornpipe rhythm might be creating or adding to the problem. To play hornpipes properly (or at least, the way I play hornpipes like the one you posted  ;) ) the dotting indicated in the notation is wrong. I would want a sort of ternary rhythm where the first note in a pair is approximately twice the length of the second, not three times the length as when dotted. (You occasionally see hornpipes of this kind written in 12/8 with crotchet-quaver pairs.)

This carries over into the rhythm of the cascading triplets. You don't want (or at least, I wouldn't want) to make the three notes even in weight. In the case of your ef#e triplet, for example, the first e gets the main attack, the f# gets barely anything, and the last e a tad more.

Getting the right rhythm (or at least what I consider the right rhythm for this piece) might make everything easier...
I don't think the dotted notes are the problem. I don't think I'd be a slave to the notation - the weight thing is highly likely though. Just stopped playing as I knackered my air button -again (it's an ongoing annoyance), but I'll have another go tomorrow.
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george garside

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2020, 11:43:32 PM »

in what way are you knackering your air button - is it due to a fault in the air button etc or in the way you are using it.   Just curious as in 60 odd years of playing a veriety of boxes air buttons  I have not been able to knacker any of them

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2020, 11:53:45 PM »

in what way are you knackering your air button - is it due to a fault in the air button etc or in the way you are using it.   Just curious as in 60 odd years of playing a veriety of boxes air buttons  I have not been able to knacker any of them

george
It's not me, I've had a couple of people fix it, and had a go myself - it's a bent wire pressing into a slot in a long wooden key - Older Sander. I've replaced the slot a couple of times with credit card inserts and it works for a while, but then gets gritty again. Now it's catching and leaking. It's not a great design. No problems on other boxes - and this is a lovely box, so it's worth getting sorted properly.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2020, 12:03:38 AM »

Ok, another question: Peter Wyper's hornpipe -the triplet scalic passage in bar 4 -
I find that if I don't switch fingers on the E-F# back comes the car horn, but if I neglect to do it further down the scale it sounds ok.
.
.
Pete, when you talk of "clown" sounds and car horn sounds I can only guess that you are yanking the bellows unduly to produce these noises (I think we need a demonstration). I don't see what difference a finger switch would make to the sound unless you are somehow doing something to change the air flow as you change fingers.

I was thinking of the possible bellows control issue that Stiamh mentioned before I actually read his reply. I agree with him, perhaps not 'yanking the bellows' excessively, but maybe inadvertantly giving more emphasis on the pull than on the push, which would result in an uneven, lumpy sound.

For passages like those triplets on a one-row box, your bellows control has got to be absolutely tight and steady, and totally synchronised with your fingers. Additionally, whatever strap methods you are using must hold the box as rigidly as possible, so that despite the bellows waggling, any movement of the RH side of the box is kept to an absolute minimum.

Not sure how you are positioned when practising this, but I notice on your previous Youtube videos that you are standing up to play, which is fine for cross-row style, but for bellows-waggly one-row style, try sitting down to play with the lower RH end of the box resting on top of your left thigh and perhaps cross your right leg over your left and jamb the box against the inside of your right thigh. You might need to adjust the length of the shoulder strap(s) to allow this.

To summarise, the two key points are:
1. Rigid box
2. Synchronise bellows waggles and precise fingering (practise slowly and gradually increase speed - but you know that!)
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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2020, 02:17:05 AM »

I am reminded of the advice John Kirkpatrick gives on his DVD regarding the fast triplet runs in "Harvest Home" - practice it over and over again, very slowly and staccato, in order to retain clarity when you get it up to speed.
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Re: One row tunes
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2020, 07:54:44 AM »

"1. Rigid box"

What, like this? (Only joking!)
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