Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss  (Read 1480 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Peadar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 657
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« on: February 13, 2020, 07:49:09 PM »

This seems like a way of approaching the B/C box from the general direction of the one row....without needing a brain transplant to also play an A/D or any other fourth apart box.
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

David Summers

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2020, 08:10:25 PM »

Isn't that like saying that a fourth apart box only able to play in two keys?

A semitone box means you can do all 12 notes, and a choice on two notes if you push or pull.

If you don't get a semitone box, and spend some time playing it, you won't know what it does.
Logged

Graham Wood

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 86
  • Old Fumble Fingers
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2020, 08:40:38 PM »

Would this be suggesting that a semitone box would be the ideal starter box to learn on because it allows an easier transition to fourth apart boxes as opposed to starting directly on a fourth apart box?
Logged
Graham Wood - Third Planet from The Sun
Hohner Morgane B/C,   Junior Martin 1 Row in 'D' with knobs on top

Peadar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 657
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 08:42:01 PM »

Isn't that like saying that a fourth apart box only able to play in two keys?

A semitone box means you can do all 12 notes, and a choice on two notes if you push or pull.

If you don't get a semitone box, and spend some time playing it, you won't know what it does.

No not really.....and having learnt that the B/C is the traditional melodeon tuning in Mull and Moidart to the South and Uibhist to the West I am going to have to at least experiment in that direction.
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1419
  • Do what you love, love what you do.
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 09:43:11 PM »

D/C# is that system basically or style of play.
C#/ D maybe
B/C not sure , but don’t think so.
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Tufty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
  • Dino Bincis etc
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 09:51:39 PM »



No not really.....and having learnt that the B/C is the traditional melodeon tuning in Mull and Moidart to the South and Uibhist to the West I am going to have to at least experiment in that direction.
[/quote]

When did the B/C box appear? I had thought it was quite recent, post WW2.
Logged

Peadar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 657
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 10:58:41 PM »



No not really.....and having learnt that the B/C is the traditional melodeon tuning in Mull and Moidart to the South and Uibhist to the West I am going to have to at least experiment in that direction.

When did the B/C box appear? I had thought it was quite recent, post WW2.
[/quote]
I really don't know- Peter Wyper certainly promoted the inside out style with the C/C# effectively treating it as a B/C and some of the "P Wyper's Patent" Internationals were labelled "B"  they will date from circa 1920.
There have been suggestions that B/C accordion was making headway in middle class Ireland in the 1920's but that the single row melodeon lasted longer in the less affluent Gaeltacht areas. In the parallel universe of rural Scotland the farm labourer's "bothy box" appears to have remained common into the 1950's ( Referring to my Antoria 3 stop, Janet Graham a band leader who must be about 80 and is from a farming background [Cumbernauld]  recently told me  "they were all around the farms when I was a child") The B/C boxes may well not have been common in the West Highland areas until after WW2.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 11:41:18 PM by Peadar »
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4962
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 11:41:15 PM »

The semitone boxes BC ,cc# etc  are chromatic instruments although some keys can be  more difficult than others.  The 3 row semitone box i.e. BCC#  are easlily chromatic and just require the learning of 5 scales to play in 12 keys and with  stradella ( same both ways) bass have the bass for all keys. The 2 row semotone boxes are somewhat limited as far as bass is concerned.

To me the 4th apart boxes DG etc are essentially 2 one row boxes  with reasonable bass for the home (on the row keys) They can also be played quite easilyu  a third up on the row  eg  D on the G row and A on the D row but with less precise bass.   The fact that  notes can be used from both rows in certain circumstances to ease fingering  or get more appropriate bass is in some ways    incidental 'I am not refering to t;he continental use of eg CF boxes where accross the row playing seems to be the main way of doing things.

Whilst its both fascinating and wholly legitimate to  get as much out of a  2 row 4th apart box as possible there are inherent limitations  and some distinct advantages.   However there is perhaps a point where a change to or the addition of a chromatic box will better answer the needs of some - there is a choice of BCC# which retains the 'diatonic' push pulliness or the  continental chromatic  1 scale for 12 kyes on the 5 row or indeed the piano box.

Perhaps for these reasons I play 1 row 4 stop, 2 row DG 2 row BC and 3 row BCC# plus occasional piano box and occasional c system continental. All have both merits and disadvantages
1#
george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

David Summers

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 12:33:50 PM »

Original post changed slighly, and I've more time now, so lets give a more expansive answer. George is of course right. Have to say I'm learning BC layout, and don't have a fourth apart box.

Really I think the question is compare a fourth appart layout (e.g. DG) with a semitone layout (e.g. BC).

Both have two rows, with each row playing in a single key; so both devices can clearly play in at least two keys, DG for a DG device, and BC for a BC device - so this already says a semtone box is more that the original question, e.g. it has a B row - and this can be taken as the main row.

Now DG, the two rows largly have the same notes, the only difference is the C or C# that are on one row or another. Now this  repeating of notes, on one row is a pull, and the other is a push. This means in tunes in D or G you have almost total freedom to play the note in either push or pull - and that is what DG players will use to their advantage.

Now BC players only have a B and an E on both rows, so for almost all notes you have no choice in what button to use for a note, there is only one and it is fixed to either pull or push. But what this choice means is that you have access to all 12 notes, a DG box can only play 8 notes, but a BC has access to all 12. This gives the BC player chance to play in all keys, e.g. to play in G a BC player plays mainly on the C row and takes the F# from the B row; to play in D he also uses the C# from the B row; and so on.

Now this shows the difference, a DG play has almost total choice over playing a note on push or pull, a BC player has almost total choice of key.

But its worth digging into why, driven by the circle of fifths . You can see that D and G are next to each other, with only a C/C# difference between them. But to access the next keys round (C and A) - and you can't do this, you can't play an F in a key of C; and you can't play an G# in a key of A. So a DG box without additional keys can't play in any key other than DG, that is there limitation and so why they have helper keys.

Now on a BC box, B and C on the circle of fifths are almost opposite sides, with almost no notes in common, but this also shows how to access other keys, e.g. a key of E would larly be on the B row, with the A note taken from the C row. Now although a BC box has all notes, some keys will get a bit silly, e.g. Eb and Ab are both almost 50/50 on both the B and the C row.

So a DG box gives more choice in how to play the tune, but limited key choice without helpers. A BC box gives no choice, which makes it harder to play; but has access to far more keys.

I'd say its swings and roundabouts, forth boxes, and semitone boxes, are different beasts each with their own advantages, and also their own disadvantages.
Logged

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 465
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 12:44:05 PM »

Original post makes very little sense, in my opinion. Not at all a useful way of looking at the BC box.
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Chris Rayner

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 304
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 01:06:36 PM »

Original post makes very little sense, in my opinion. Not at all a useful way of looking at the BC box.

I see your point, but it’s an interesting idea.  I think the results in the hands of excellent players speak for themselves.  They use the two rows as a single instrument.  A single row with helper row is more of an organetto.

I heard somewhere that Jimmy Shand once said that if he were starting again he’d take up the CBA.  Dunno how true that is.
Logged
Elderly amateur musician hoping to stave off dementia by learning to play the melodeon.  Main instrument a Tommy, also D/G and G/C pokerworks,  a single row 2 stop Hohner, and a new addition to the free reedery, a rather splendid Paolo Soprani four voice 120 bass c-system chromatic button accordion.  Very shiny, very loud, and about the same size and weight as a small car.  Now I’ve traded me Benny with (ahem) a cash adjustment, to a three voice 60 bass Castagnari K3.

Gena Crisman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
  • 🇬🇧
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 02:08:16 PM »

But its worth digging into why, driven by the circle of fifths.
You can see that D and G are next to each other...
Now on a BC box, B and C on the circle of fifths are almost opposite sides
This approach was very interesting to read since that's exactly how I think about it.

I think it raises a few interesting questions, too - If a narrow gap gives maximum choice but the largest key restriction, and the widest gap gives the least choice, but 0 key restriction - are there... other choices?

Something I like to do is consider if it is possible to at least partially describe what people consider useful accidental rows as (almost) being a row of some other key, and does that approach help inform what direction the notes on it should be in?
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2020, 02:24:30 PM »

Yes, it does. My C# based accs row is very much predicated on C# being the most “different” key from G, and second most different from D.

Fair to recognise that one might say the same of a C# row reversed (pull/push), or either configuration based on Ab. So no to question B. That’s about whether your style of play tends to sharpen notes (ie modulate up a key), or flatten (you like Blues)

The concept of playing “out” in improvisation is closely related … 🤔 If you’ve recently been with Anne Neipold you might have picked up on that 😉
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 02:27:37 PM by Chris Ryall »
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

David Summers

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2020, 03:01:51 PM »

But its worth digging into why, driven by the circle of fifths.
You can see that D and G are next to each other...
Now on a BC box, B and C on the circle of fifths are almost opposite sides
This approach was very interesting to read since that's exactly how I think about it.

I think it raises a few interesting questions, too - If a narrow gap gives maximum choice but the largest key restriction, and the widest gap gives the least choice, but 0 key restriction - are there... other choices?

Something I like to do is consider if it is possible to at least partially describe what people consider useful accidental rows as (almost) being a row of some other key, and does that approach help inform what direction the notes on it should be in?
To my mind, yes on a fouth appart box, when you add helper rows and accidentals, then yes use the circle of fifths, go to the next key either left or right from the key you have, see what the extra note is - and thats useful to have as an accidental, as it gives access to an extra key. All other keys will need access to at least two accidentals.

Another way of looking at it, is choose tunes from close by keys on the circle of fifths, and you'll find many that don't use the note with the accidental. We had that recently on the old adam was a poacher, for the first part in d minor, but the tune didn't use a Bb at any stage, so this could be played on a C major melodeon with no duff notes.

Its also why in tunes, the dominant and the subdominant are so critical. Being a fifth or a fouth away, they are only one step round the circle of fifths, and so only have a single note that needs an accidental. It means that many tunes, you can move up a fouth or a fifth, and not have to change the key. So you find many tunes do that.

I guess, you may have guessed, I'm a theory person - but to me whats good about theory is how it brings understanding. So when I do practical music, either singing or melodeon, you use the theory to help you do practice better. :)

And a wierd idea I had last night, on a three row box, how well would C E Ab do - as then the three rows are maximally appart on the circle of fifths. But really next need to draw the layout, and see what the implications are. Initially it seems bad, becuase the notes are major thirds appart - but all would be in the same direction. Now thats not a chord due to all thirds being major.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 03:16:19 PM by David Summers »
Logged

Peadar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 657
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2020, 07:18:52 PM »



Really I think the question is compare a fourth appart layout (e.g. DG) with a semitone layout (e.g. BC).


No it wasn't - The direct comparison I was making is with a 1 row. Which is my melodeon reference point.
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

mselic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 740
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2020, 07:25:10 PM »

B/C would only be “like a one-row melodeon with accidentals” if your one-row was in the key of C. For ITM, only the C#/D and D/C# would be like what you’re describing.
Logged
4 stops: Melodie D, Beltuna G, HA114 A and G
Saltarelle Irish Bouebe D/C#, Hohner Erica D/C#

folkloristmark

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 293
    • street entertainers
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2020, 07:56:48 PM »

If you come from one row playing then yes the original statement is correct, nay understanable,but as the posts say once you have played G from C and D from C you will end up with a fully chromatic approach.At the moment I seem to be treating my G and C semitone boxes as one rows. But the Bc seems different which is wierd but it is very early days.
Logged
Mark Taylor
Folkloristmark

Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4036
  • Windjammer
    • Wesson Accordions
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2020, 09:15:06 PM »

Before the D/G was invented the old folks used to play in C on anything with a C row.
They were coming from a one-row perspective so yes B/C and C/C# were one-rows with a helper row.
Dolly Curtis from Dennington, Suffolk is an example of this style.

https://eatmt.wordpress.com/dolly-curtis/
Logged
Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
Gungrog, Welshpool, Wales, UK
www.melodeons.com

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1419
  • Do what you love, love what you do.
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2020, 09:15:57 PM »

Original post makes very little sense, in my opinion. Not at all a useful way of looking at the BC box.
A single row with helper row is more of an organetto.
It is if you want reversals for your helper row, not if you want extra helper / semitone apart notes, which I do believe is what the OP means.
Correct me if I'm off please.

really the only (true) semitone with helper is a 1.something, e.g. 1.3 , 1.5, etc. IMO
all the others could be played as Mselic said play your B/C as a C box using B row as helper, suppose if nobody minded you could reverse that and play in B using the C row as helper.
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4036
  • Windjammer
    • Wesson Accordions
Re: A Semitone Box Is A 1 Row With A Helper Row: Discuss
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2020, 09:21:08 PM »

way back in the day, Mrs Crowley of Kenmare, Co. Kerry played her Double Ray for me. She played the tune on the B row with C basses.
An acquired taste!
Logged
Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
Gungrog, Welshpool, Wales, UK
www.melodeons.com
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal