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Author Topic: Gena's G/C Project Box  (Read 4283 times)

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Gena Crisman

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Gena's G/C Project Box
« on: March 10, 2020, 10:25:23 AM »

Heya,

So, I've bought a GC Pokerwork project box. It may be a bit unusual in that it has 12 basses - that's not something I've seen very often I guess, but, it's hardly my area of expertise. I couldn't find really any other examples crawling the forum or elsewhere though, other than as accordion style unisonoric basses.

The box presents otherwise as your standard hohner 2915-looking amorphous 'pokerwork', standard size & everything, but of uncertain (to me) age besides 'old'. The extra basses are configured as regular diatonic basses and it seems nothing too unusual is going on in the bass mech - it doesn't seem aftermarket to me. The extra basses are kind of as I'd guessed - they're D/A and Em/B - so, as if the instrument had a 3rd row in D. Interestingly, the Em/B is flipped to so that Em is on the press, just like the GC's regular E major chord. So, rather uninspiring choices, but not unusual.

Pretty much the things that are in good or ok condition are:
  • Hohner H stamped reeds on the melody and chord notes, on I'd guess zinc plates?
  • Hohner T stamped reeds on the fundamentals
  • Almost all valves are present - they're all past it & 1 is missing, but, being present suggests to me that it wasn't mistreated particularly.
  • No noticeably broken reeds & no missing plates.
  • Bellows seem like they're pretty dirty, but, without any failed gussets or obvious damage
  • Keyboard mechanisms looks all OK, if ancient. (One replaced spring that I saw)
  • I... think it might have a new thumb strap?

The reeds and bellows all being in good nick was my most important ask, so, I'm quite pleased with the purchase.

Flip side, the things that need fixing:
  • The buttons are in a fairly unpleasant condition. I believe maybe one bass button has been replaced, and they're all varying heights. Some of the melody side buttons are a bit chewed up around the sides and one sticks in the keyboard every time.
  • The pallets are all present but the leather on them might as well not exist.
  • The wax is obviously toast.
  • Bellows gaskets are obviously toast
  • 2 of the reed blocks appear to have been repaired prior, using a screw to re-affix their flat wooden section (the part that sits against the fondo with all the round holes) - one repair has failed and the wooden piece pulls away freely. The bass fundamentals reed block has the 'intact' repair, however, it has a warp/twist going on. The others are 'mostly' flat.
  • The shoulder strap is screwed directly into the body of the instrument, it seems the previous strap bracket pulled out.
  • The bass mech cover is just tacked on with some domed pins of some kind.
  • Bellows pins are bent/distorted and don't sit flush, but are all removable.

Photos are here: https://imgur.com/a/IZAHgPm

The shopping list for fixing things is a little longer than I'd planned. But, that's kind of good because, as things stand, this instrument is unplayable. This, to me, makes me feel more OK about trying some dumb stuff for case work & exploring bad ideas on the way to repairing it - I won't be ruining a playable instrument. I'm not entirely sure what my final goal really is, but, I've been getting the itch to do things and explore mechanical ideas, so, the reality is that my goals will probably to be a bit silly, rather than to sympathetically restore the instrument. The main thing I do intend to be sensible about is the reeds.

I have no special place in my heart for hohner instruments and generally find them to be displeasing to the touch, and I'm assuming that this instrument is neither rare nor special. At the moment, I'm mostly thinking to do some basic refurbishment, but to eventually ship-of-theseus both the melody and bass ends of this instrument - which means, bit by bit making replacements for all of the parts, across the whole instrument, until it has actually been wholly replaced. Making an entire instrument from whole cloth is too much for me as it stands, but, this presents an alluring gateway to doing so. Knowing my approach to space efficiency, it's likely to pick up some more buttons & reeds along the way.

So, I'm probably gonna be photo-blogging my activities here & seek advice where applicable - y'all have basically posted all the information I could ever need already. I think my first plan is to adapt the instrument into temporarily being a tuning bellows, and ascertaining the status of all of the reeds, off of their blocks. They certainly have no value on their blocks at current.
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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2020, 10:31:52 AM »

Looks like a great project, and I wish you success with it, I certainly would love to get my hands on a box like that.

SJ
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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2020, 10:36:23 AM »

I concur with Sir John's comments in every respect. (This urge to tinker and alter must be a further complication of MAD for some sufferers, methinks.)
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Theo

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2020, 11:07:41 AM »

Nice project box.  It's suffered some unsympathetic repairs but they seem to be mostly cosmetic.  The nasty black paint job on the keyboard is what I noticed most. Thankfully the reeds don't appear to have suffered.

The screw in the base of the reedblock is fairly standard in older Hohners, as is the failed glue joint!  The best way to repair that is to take the base plate off completely once you have dismounted the reeds,  then you can sand down to clean wood and re-glue, and put the screw back in too.

It is quite rare to find a Hohner two row with 12 basses, and because of that I suggest you aim to make this as good a player as possible.  The old reeds on zinc plates are very responsive and have a lovely warm sound, not a bit like post 1950 Hohner brashness.  You might even find you get to quite like it!
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2020, 11:13:57 AM »

Great project Gena. Very useful box, a 12 bass GC.

At least you are sensible and start with a GC not like me with a 4 bass BbEb.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2020, 02:13:53 PM »

So, since I'm going to have to start thinking about it at some point:
The old reeds on zinc plates are very responsive and have a lovely warm sound, not a bit like post 1950 Hohner brashness.  You might even find you get to quite like it!

How viable do we think it will be for me to find suitable replacement reeds for this instrument?

For example, for the extra basses on a 12 bass instrument, I'd typically look for:

Ab/Bm Eb/Bb (the equivalent of Eb/F#m Bb/F on a DG)
or
D/C Bm/Bb (the equivalent of A/G F#m/F on a DG)

Depending on what I wanted to do with it. Knowing me, probably the former - which offers vocabulary in the relative minors of your main keys, rather than as many chord reversals as the other choice there.

Currently they are
D/A Em/B (the equivalent of A/E Bm/F# on a DG)

If I wanted to play in D major on it (which, obviously, I do), I don't think that's the approach I would take. So, I really don't see much value in the D/A Em/B at all - they seem quite uninspiring choices. While I'm not sure how the chords are voiced yet, I can't imagine I'll be able to fully weasel other chords out of them, so, some replacements will likely be needed? I realise now I have no idea how far you can safely push fundamental reeds, but, that's to figure out later I guess.

I mean, yeah, working out my exact solution here is down the line somewhere, step one is getting everything sounding and then step 2 is stop everything leaking/falling off, but, it would be helpful to know if I've put myself of not being able to replace reed plates easily.

Also it's gonna take a long time to get used to G/C note layouts...
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Theo

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2020, 02:20:36 PM »

Since it’s a first project I suggest you stick with the original reeds.  Get it back in playing order, then see what you can do with those basses.  Once you have done all the reed work it will be a relatively familiar task to change the 4 extra bass buttons.
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playandteach

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2020, 06:24:28 PM »

Gena, you may well be much more skilled than me, but I've always stalled when it comes to reeds. Frankly, unless you are planning to build skills in tuning, I'd be tempted to do everything but the reeds. There is a problem for some pro repairers in part working on a box that has had amateur hands on it, as the work they do might be less obviously successful because of the amateur work elsewhere. But if you can find someone to work on it with you, you might find that it turns into a better box than you think possible. Best of luck.
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2020, 07:59:46 PM »

Are you keeping the thirds in all the basses?
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Paul Brennan

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2020, 08:53:48 PM »

I bought an old bandoneon (with zinc reed plates and a lot of notes) for $300 last winter and had a lot of fun restoring it. I am a beginner so it was quite the ordeal at times, and of course I spent much more than 300 on it. I agree reeds are the hard part. Ship of theseus is exactly right - it would be easier to buy a new one but where's the fun in that? I would next like to try fixing up a one-row and I wonder how much would/should I pay for a project box?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 08:55:49 PM by Paul Brennan »
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2020, 10:11:24 PM »

Are you keeping the thirds in all the basses?

I don't know, to be honest my inclination would be to drop the 3rds out unless I can invent something clever to swap them in and out. I do enjoy having them present but you can add them back in with the right hand.

Frankly, unless you are planning to build skills in tuning

I do indeed intend to build skills in tuning. But, I'm also prepared to throw my hands up in the air if it doesn't go well and accept the consequences. I've played around with steel bronze reeds you can find on a single plate in old one rows, as well as reversed some accidental plates. But, not without incident. My hope is to have learned from those mistakes. The depth of my knowledge currently really only extends to 'if reed no work, how make work?'. The finer points of how to get the tuning to be the actual tuning that you'd want in the instrument, especially without assembling and taking the instrument apart each and every time, is not something I've managed to achieve thus far.

In terms of project progress type things, I had a go at it today, taking some of the the first rudimentary steps. I took apart the whole melody side, and brushed out all the cruft that had accumulated in the mechanism.

Some photos from today:
https://imgur.com/a/nFfU6UF

Points of note:
1) The 'replacement' spring is very weak by comparison to it's brethren, and I suspect it will leak under bellows pressure.
2) I pulled off all of the melody pallets - the wood was all very unpleasant, and the ancient leather perhaps more so.
3) There's a small piece of chipped out wood between some of the holes in the fondo that I ought to repair.
4) After some light sanding they all looked ok and like something I would be willing to touch.
5) I think the buttons have all been painted, too? I imagine at this point, my best bet is to replace all of the buttons with something new, and non-horrid. I'm not sure with what, exactly - the bass buttons would need the same treatment.

They're 12.5mm and I assume stick onto the button arms in some way, I imagine Charlie Marshal sells replacements, but, idk spending 30-40 pounds on a whole new set of buttons for both ends of the instrument seems a bit hefty. I typically play & prefer stepped keyboards, and know better how those all fit together, so, I'm not sure what approach to take yet.

I guess my plan for the next time I have a play is: pull the reeds off, diagnose any misbehaving ones, and then (presumably) bash the failing reed blocks apart, clean & glue them back together as well as looking to level them out. I should be able to get some pallet facing material, valves and reed wax from my mum probably on Thursday, who has surplus from buying supplies to do up some other instruments. Perhaps I'll have some viable reed blocks by then, too.

There's quite a lot of rust on some surfaces of the treble keyboard mechanism - is that of any concern? Just remembered I'm going to need some glue for the valves, so, will make sure I have something suitable for that.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2020, 11:46:33 PM »

If it is indeed a 2915 style, you can replace the whole treble mechanism with buttons for a quite modest sum here:
http://www.hohner-cshop.de/en/Accordion/Diatonic/2-row/Erica/
I'm pretty sure it's the same mech. You can get an Erica bass mech but you'd need a few mods to fit it to your box. Otherwise I think the plan would just be to clean it up.

Bass buttons can be found on the 2915 page but to my mind are expensive. The site is still worth a browse for bits.
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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2020, 11:49:50 PM »

From what Theo says, it sounds like these reeds are a bit special. Worth making sure they don't suffer anything irreversible.
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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2020, 11:53:38 PM »

Gena, I've cleaned up the odd mechanism in my trials to date. I've used a rust rubber to get the worst off, and left it at that. Just don't push too hard on the bendy bits. It also did a good job on the axle, though of course that's an especially vulnerable part. Bear in mind you are probably several steps ahead of my skills anyway.
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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2020, 11:58:39 PM »



"I guess my plan for the next time I have a play is: pull the reeds off, diagnose any misbehaving ones, and then (presumably) bash the failing reed blocks apart"

For heavens sake don't bash them!

Where glue joints have failed and you want to take the pieces of wood apart ease the nose of a vegetable knife into a point where the two piecs of wod have seperated, as you get it further in the glued faces will progrssively split from each other, with the knife blade not cutting but acting as a wedge to sperate the glued faces.
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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2020, 01:28:38 AM »

Quote
How viable do we think it will be for me to find suitable replacement reeds for this instrument?
Easier than finding a bottle of TCP at the moment I would venture!

Quote
2 of the reed blocks appear to have been repaired prior, using a screw to re-affix their flat wooden section (the part that sits against the fondo with all the round holes)
That screw is supposed to be there. I think someone has already pointed that out.

Quote
The bass fundamentals reed block has the 'intact' repair, however, it has a warp/twist going on. The others are 'mostly' flat.
If you mean it is not sitting flat/flush, then it's an easy fix.

Quote
This, to me, makes me feel more OK about trying some dumb stuff for case work & exploring bad ideas on the way to repairing it

I've been getting the itch to do things and explore mechanical ideas, so, the reality is that my goals will probably to be a bit silly, rather than to sympathetically restore the instrument.
Why would you want to take that approach?
Your box is not in bad shape at all. It's just an old beat-up, run-of-the-mill thing.
There's loads of good advice on repairs/restoration available here. Why not just follow that?

Quote
to eventually ship-of-theseus both the melody and bass ends of this instrument - which means,
bit by bit making replacements for all of the parts,  across the whole instrument, until it has actually been wholly replaced.
I don't get it. You intend literally making replacement parts?
Why do that? 

Quote
I think my first plan is to adapt the instrument into temporarily being a tuning bellows, and ascertaining the status of all of the reeds, off of their blocks.
They certainly have no value on their blocks at current.
How are you going to do that if the reeds are loose?
You will need to also make a device to test individual reeds. That's a bit tricky.
Besides, you are not going to gain a huge amount with that approach.
My advice would be to test them on the blocks. The wax is shot and the valves are leaky, but that doesn't
matter at this stage.
If you have any seriously defective reeds, it might show up at this stage.
My approach would be to remove and clean the reeds. Forget about your tuning bellows for the moment.

Quote
I think the buttons have all been painted, too? I imagine at this point, my best bet is to replace all of the buttons with something new
Clean them. I wouldn't bother replacing them unless I wanted bigger buttons maybe, and that might involve reaming out the button holes. All completely unnecessary in my opinion.

Quote
There's a small piece of chipped out wood between some of the holes in the fondo that I ought to repair
I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Quote
I have no special place in my heart for hohner instruments and generally find them to be displeasing to the touch
I'm sure you don't mean that really!


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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2020, 09:10:26 AM »

My approach would be to remove and clean the reeds. Forget about your tuning bellows for the moment.
I agree with Pearse. You can't assess anything successfully unless the reeds are clean and have properly working valves.
That's really your first job.

1. Take all the reeds off the reed blocks, strip off all the old valves and bin them. Don't try to re-use old valves, it's simply not worth it.

2. Clean off all old wax from the reed plates and the reed blocks. I use a shallow bath of acetone* to clean residual wax from the reed plates and a blunt knife blade to gently scrape old wax off the reed blocks.

(Now is the time to repair any structural defects on the reed blocks - e.g. re-glue cracked base plates, sand down any warped or bowed base plates)

3. Check the reed tongues on both sides for rust and if there is any, gently scrape it off with a screw-driver blade or some 600-grit carborundum paper or file. Remember to support the reed tongues with a thin metal shim while you do this. In your photos the reed tongues look reasonably rust free, so hopefully this won't be a major issue.

4. Fit new valves to the reed plates and then re-wax them into place.

Only when you have done all the above can you begin to assess how the reeds are performing; for instance whether the reed tip gaps are correct and how out of tune the reeds are.

* Work in a well ventilated place away from any source of ignition. Aluminium foil take-away curry containers are good; plastic ones dissolve!
Industrial grade acetone is readily available and cheap as chips. I get mine from here:
https://www.mbfg.co.uk/acetone.html
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2020, 09:29:35 AM »

Steve's right. Get the reeds usable before you can do any else.
For surface rust on the inside face of the reed tongue I have a bit of snapped off fibreglass rod.
It was a pull through fish rod for electrical cables.
It's filed to a blunt point and cleans up a treat inside the slot in the plate.
Be aware of the dust though and take precautions.
I have a little block of plywood with a hole cut in it for rough mounting reeds to get them close to what I want before waxing in. This is when you can check for even gaps, speaking easily etc.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2020, 01:15:56 PM »

For heavens sake don't bash them!

The bottom section is was attached via hide glue. My understanding is that, hide glue is brittle, and (especially partially failed) joints respond quite readily to a shock when one wishes to separate them. So, I don't think what I said there is an unreasonable thing to have said?

You'll be pleased to hear the offending section has been successfully displaced, in any event. I did use a small metal prying tool to encourage it to finish separating along the internal spine of the reed block, where the thinnest pieces of wood is & that I was most worried about. Then, used manual rotation to persuade the larger remaining area at the tail piece of the block. It separated without any damage.

So, this doesn't really seem like it needs to be a reversible joint. I also think this is the only wood to wood bond I need to do? (Unless I find other important-to-repair damage) It's a bit earlier than I was thinking I would be doing any, so, I guess I'll need to figure out what I want to do for glue. It was hide glue before, but, that joint did fail... so... hmm. This thread and pariselle course instruments appear to be pva wood glued together so that should be appropriate here, I think.

If it is indeed a 2915 style, you can replace the whole treble mechanism with buttons for a quite modest sum here

Wow, that's a great tip, Malcolm, thank you! I shall keep that in mind if I suffer a total loss.

Why would you want to take that approach?
...
I'm sure you don't mean that really!

Hi Pearse.

So, bottom line, it's because I want to have fun, and, the stakes to me are literally 0.

So, imagine for a second I do actually mean that, really. Imagine I don't particularly want a restored 2 row 12 bass hohner pokerwork. Imagine that what I want to do, is the thing I said I wanted to do - I want to slowly replace an instrument with things I built myself, like for like, and then replace for not-like. I want to build a keyboard & I want to see what I could do with the same bellows footprint, I want to learn about & play with the mechanisms that I could use, think about what might/might not work for me. I want to invent things and solve novel-to-me problems, and enjoy myself. I've no idea why someone wouldn't want to do that.

Fixing up the instrument is a part of that process, sure, but, it isn't really my end goal. This instrument, to me, presents a playground. I've no interest in destroying it, but, it is in no way sacred to me either.

Maybe I can't get much information about the reeds before cleaning them entirely. But, what's the harm in just checking it out and seeing what they look like & if they can sound or not, y'know? Thinking about it, I probably have not even heard half of them. It took like, a few minutes with a dumb bit of cardboard and some packing foam to be able to see & sound the reeds in the blocks, and a few more minutes to make a little air chamber that a reed plate could be pushed against, and it made sounds and was interesting, and that's effectively what y'all are saying 'yeah no don't do that'? Like, I'm not sure if you thought I was talking about actually tuning them, or adjusting the reed set, or whatever - what I was trying to say really was, I'm concerned that if one of these plates has a broken reed so I wanna check they seem ok - if one is busted, I might be looking for a replacement for I-have-literally-no-idea-how-long/a few days and maybe it would it be handy to know that eg today, rather than eg friday, so I can maybe have one in my hands when I want it. Shooting some air and looking at them a bit seems reasonable to me?

So, I mean, I do appreciate the advice. I mostly know the approach to take, care of the many previous posts on the forum that you may be surprised to hear I have read and researched.

Wax removal, care of http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=16036.0 & advice here.
Valve glue, organised, care of http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=20108.0 so I'll have it ready when I have some valves
Flattening Reed Block warps, care of https://youtu.be/xy8dizq8Tks?t=174 is something I might aim to do today.
Wood Glue I know to have been used in manufacture of reed blocks + clamps organised, as above.

I've looked up my reed scratcher, lifter & support options, care of eg http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13893.0.html & intend to obtain appropriate brass.
Bellows Gasket should be available to me.
Gasket for reed blocks to be organised, presumably Olovisc care of Charlie Marshall this will be suitable.
Definitely need some replacement springs also - one is bad replacement, one seems too weak, presumably mech comes apart per advice here http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,3305.0.html - I should also check my bass springs.

Re the Paint on Buttons, that is a new problem to me, that is something I'm not sure how to approach. It doesn't seem to be a water soluble paint. The buttons look pretty groady around the edges. Bright white plastic buttons is gonna look pretty lame too, though;
Clean them.
What approach would you take to actually cleaning them, though - chemicals, abrasives etc? Clean them on the arms/off the arms? I don't have a dedicated work room, harsher chemicals may not be a comfortable option for me, & for the same reason I won't be doing anything with fibreglass. Since mentioned, Acetone should be ok.
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Gena's G/C Project Box
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2020, 02:29:50 PM »

Gena, I'm getting the impression that my comments/advice have irritated you.
That was certainly not my intention.
I was offering my advice, for what it's worth. Nothing more, nothing less.
I misinterpreted you here I suppose; 
Quote
I'm probably gonna be photo-blogging my activities here & seek advice where applicable

Your approach to repairs/restoration is novel. Unorthodox even. I realize that now.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that.
Good luck with your project.
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