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Author Topic: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM  (Read 4664 times)

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odonovanchris

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Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« on: March 14, 2020, 12:25:30 AM »

Hi all,

I recently purchased this red badge Paolo Soprani online expecting it to be a 3-voice but it ended up being a 2 voice MM. Interesting as I have never seen one like this before. I'm having a hard time dating it since it has a combination of features such as the green plastic pallets of the 60s but a wooden soundboard from the earlier times. So I'm guessing early 60s? Anyone have any insight into this particular model? Was there any mention of a 2 voice in the catalogs etc. The tuning is F/Bb and the action is extremely light considering the pallets are smaller . It doesn't seem to suffer from the tonal differences between rows because they all open in the same direction - simplified mechanism.

I have a few modifications I'm hoping to do to it at some stage: Convert the keyboard to flat. Retune to A/Bb so it can be played Irish style yet retain the Bb row for original character - it has a really nice sound that I want to preserve. Any information would be appreciated. I've attached pictures for reference.

Thanks!
Chris
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tirpous

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2020, 04:35:18 AM »

Hi Chris, see the attached picture of a French catalog of the horseshoe era, probably a bit earlier than your box.  The first model listed on the right page is a 2-voice (2 voix).

I have a 3-voice MMM B/C that was converted from a stepped-keyboard LMM G/C, same grille type as yours, wooden soundboard and wooden pallets.  (and I like it !)
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2020, 05:07:11 AM »

Quote
I'm having a hard time dating it since it has a combination of features such as the green plastic pallets of the 60s but a wooden soundboard from the earlier times. So I'm guessing early 60s?

I don't think the wooden soundboard on its own is a firm indicator of the age or decade.
Or indeed the green plastic pallets either, for that matter.
You had wooden soundboards and green plastic pallets throughout the decades.
I have a 1957 red badge Paolo that has the plastic pallets, and a late 1970s Paolo that also has plastic pallets.
I also have an early 1960s red badge with plain wooden pallets.
The mechanism in yours is different to all of mine. Yours being a 2-voice does not need the cantilever system,
unlike mine which are 3-voice and 4-voice.
I would think yours is early 1960s, as you have said yourself.
I envy you. I would love one of those. It's a real beauty.
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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2020, 01:04:33 PM »

Quote
I'm having a hard time dating it since it has a combination of features such as the green plastic pallets of the 60s but a wooden soundboard from the earlier times. So I'm guessing early 60s?

I don't think the wooden soundboard on its own is a firm indicator of the age or decade.
Or indeed the green plastic pallets either, for that matter.
You had wooden soundboards and green plastic pallets throughout the decades.
I have a 1957 red badge Paolo that has the plastic pallets, and a late 1970s Paolo that also has plastic pallets.
I also have an early 1960s red badge with plain wooden pallets.
The mechanism in yours is different to all of mine. Yours being a 2-voice does not need the cantilever system,
unlike mine which are 3-voice and 4-voice.
I would think yours is early 1960s, as you have said yourself.
I envy you. I would love one of those. It's a real beauty.

Thanks Pearse Rossa, very well said on all accounts.
I started replying to Chris and was interrupted before I could find photos to attach of 2 voice Paolos. Your reply is more complete and succinct than mine would have been!

To expand on your comment, "Yours being a 2-voice does not need the cantilever system" I think that 2 voice boxes, with only one reedblock / row and with smaller pallets that are usually centrally located, will usually have much less of the "difference in tone quality between the button rows" that we often hear in boxes that have 3 or 4 voices. Not to say there is *no* difference; I can hear that slight extra brightness from the outside row in 2 voice 2 row Paolos.

Also, the wooden soundboard is typical for 2 voice Paolos of this type even after they went to aluminum soundboards for the ones with more reeds and with couplers.

And yes, a lovely box. I think the 2 voice Paolo sound might be underrated for Irish music because original examples with flat keyboards from the 1940s - 1960s are rare. I have recently been playing a 2 voice Paolo DC# every day and like it more each time.

PG

« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 01:07:23 PM by pgroff »
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2020, 03:02:02 PM »

  I think the 2 voice Paolo sound might be underrated for Irish music because original examples with flat keyboards from the 1940s - 1960s are rare.
Extremely rare. Also, there is a preference for 3-voice musette and 4-voice tremolo tuning amongst Irish
Paolo players. I have seen a few dry tuned Paolos, but they would be the exception.

Quote
well said on all accounts
I wouldn't claim to have any expert knowledge other than personal observations, and a life long interest.
Most of what I know has been gleaned from contributions made by yourself and others...notably Lars and
Stephen Chambers ( whose absence is a great loss). That man could tell you what a Paolo had for breakfast
just by looking at its bellows!
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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2020, 03:18:33 PM »

  I think the 2 voice Paolo sound might be underrated for Irish music because original examples with flat keyboards from the 1940s - 1960s are rare.
Extremely rare. Also, there is a preference for 3-voice musette and 4-voice tremolo tuning amongst Irish
Paolo players. I have seen a few dry tuned Paolos, but they would be the exception.


When I first started playing with Irish box players, in the 1980s (back then I played mostly guitar and concertina), I did hear quite a few 4 voice Paolos tuned dry or nearly so but I've come to love the entire range of tunings, from dry to gentle to a full on musette - it's all how a musician uses that sound. The original rich 2 voice tremelo tunings of the MM Paolos I've heard have had a lot of character, especially the DC# one that I mentioned. I sold a 2 voice red 1960s Paolo in FBb some years ago (nearly identical to the one that Chris posted here), and recently I heard from the owner that it's still one of his favorite boxes, and has sometimes been mistaken for a 3 voice. I think that could be because of the tonal coloring (filtering of harmonics, maybe some built in "echo") created by the shape and the materials of the box, especially the grille and the area under it, and maybe the fact that these 2 voice boxes, while small, still allow for a lot of space around the reedblocks internally and also a lot of space around the pallets under the grille. Just a guess. But whatever the reason for how the MM tremelo Paolos  sound, I'm guessing that the great Irish players who love a 3 voice MMM musette Paolo Soprani sound would find these MM boxes charming and musically useful also, maybe especially if tuned to a real tremelo. Compared to the legendary MMM boxes, the MM ones when tremelo tuned have a different but definitely related sound and just possibly they could be "the best at what they do" for some musical uses. Interesting too to compare them with the MM Hohner boxes that have been played (and often hot-rodded) by Irish players such as Peter Carberry, Martin Quinn, Josephine Marsh, Derek Hickey, Charlie Piggott etc, and with the MM Busilacchios, Scandallis, etc, not to mention the Saltarelle Irish Bouebe model.

Speaking of Stephen Chambers, he's been very enthusiastic about the sound of his little MM 1 row pepperpot D box, unlabeled but made by Paolo. I think Stephen was able to obtain his example in dead original factory tuning (high pitch and tremelo), and that he kept that tuning. My example of that model was re-pitched to A=440 before I got it, but the former owner / tuner tried to replicate the original tremelo at the lower pitch and that box is a great sounding one.

Thanks as always for your kind words and your insights!

PG
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:45:44 PM by pgroff »
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odonovanchris

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2020, 11:13:50 PM »

Hi everyone, thanks so much for the information. This place is a gold mine for Paolo facts!

tirpous: Yes I think the horseshoe was mid-to late 50s if i'm not mistaken. I have a 4 voice horseshoe and it also has the wooden soundboard which seems to give a warm rattle sound.

Pearse: The button mechanism is a lot lighter than my other boxes, I'm looking forward to getting the stepped conversion done so I can see how it plays then.

pgroff: I'd love to see pictures of your D/C#. The one thing I really like about this box is the lightness - it's around 80%ish the size of my other paolos yet I was surprised the amount of "real estate" left around the pallets, they could possibly have made it more compact. But yes I think light boxes are valued in irish circles. Nothing worse than a back breaking gig with a 9-coupler haha.

I personally think it's a sin to dry-tune a paolo. The heavy musette is what gives them that great character and adds the ghostly sound. Leave the dry tuning for the modern boxes  >:E

Here's a video of this box prior to tuning. I'll try and remember to put up another video when it's done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhgUKPhTCio
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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2020, 12:23:45 PM »

Chris wrote:

"pgroff: I'd love to see pictures of your D/C#"

OK,

Here is a comparative photo showing some Paolo Soprani "D boxes" (either D, or DC#) made for export to the US Irish-American market, 1950s - 1960s. The two-row boxes shown were sold in Boston, New York city, and Connecticut. The one sold in Boston is labeled both "Paolo Soprani" and "O'Byrne DeWitt." O'Byrne DeWitt was the music store / travel agency that imported these and probably got the ball rolling for the general idea of a Paolo in this size and DC# keys. (See other threads on those instruments where Stephen Chambers especially has discussed their history and illustrated some of the earliest examples, with bare aluminum grilles*). However, other accordion retailers around the US (where there were centers of Irish musicians) also got into this market and sold similar accordions. The ones not sold by O'Byrne Dewitt are usually just labeled "Paolo Soprani" and "Made in Italy," but some Baldoni-Bartoli instruments sold in New York are also Paolo Sopranis of very similar design. The one-row red pepperpot box was sold in Chicago and part of the leftover inventory of the Italian Accordion Manufacturing Co., and is unlabeled but was clearly made by Paolo Soprani. (See another thread on these instruments; IAMC also sold 2 row DC# Paolos with 19 melody keys and 4 basses**).

All of the boxes shown are quite small and lightweight, much smaller than a typical 2 row 4 voice Paolo. I think they are probably all shorter than Chris's new box because of the short melody rows (10/9 vs 11/10) and also all smaller on the bass side due to the single column of 4 bass buttons. However, the 1 row box is obviously the smallest. Then, the early (O'Byrne DeWitt) 2-coupler box is much smaller than the later (New York) 2 coupler box, even though both are 4 voice and with the same number of buttons.

More directly on topic for this thread on MM Paolos, the red 1-row pepperpot box in D and the black no-coupler 2 row box (DC#) are both MM. Both those MM boxes have wooden soundboards and small couplers with a direct lever action, and both are tremelo tuned.

PG

Related threads:

*
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,768.0.html

**
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,16118.0.html

« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 12:30:19 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2020, 12:37:49 PM »

Hi Chris, see the attached picture of a French catalog of the horseshoe era, probably a bit earlier than your box.  The first model listed on the right page is a 2-voice (2 voix).

I have a 3-voice MMM B/C that was converted from a stepped-keyboard LMM G/C, same grille type as yours, wooden soundboard and wooden pallets.  (and I like it !)

Following up on tirpous' catalog photo (which illustrates the 2 coupler 2 row horseshoe grille model with 21 / 8 buttons and with stepped keyboard, but which does list the MM model also):

Here's a pic of the actual MM horseshoe grille model. Photo by Laurent Jarry. This one is in FBb.

PG
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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2020, 12:48:34 PM »

And here (photo below) is the MM 1960s model in FBb, very similar to Chris' box, that I used to own. This was a very lively box in great shape, but never overhauled so needing wax and leathers, that I mentioned above. I think Theo has since overhauled it so I'd love to hear it now.  Here's a video as well, of Ryan Baker playing either that or a very similar box, in Bb. The tune reminds me of Higgin's hornpipe / the Cliffs, which is also like the well-known "Harvest Home."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFTKqea9JWM

PG


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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2020, 01:10:43 PM »

Here's a photo I saved from an auction years ago, of a mid-1950s MM Paolo in GC out of New Zealand. I don't know who bought that one, but thought it was very pretty despite needing some repairs.

And here's a very similar box that was converted from 2-row MM to 1-row 4 voice by Laurent Jarry.

PG
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pgroff

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2020, 01:28:50 PM »

Then here's one I had to sell as an unfinished project when times were tough - a very early (1940s?) Paolo with a metal grille that was originally in FBb MM with stepped keyboard, but was in the process of conversion to a flat-keyboard ABb box. 

This one (although much earlier than your example) seems relevant to your conversion idea, Chris. I always thought this one had great potential to sound amazing, but the job was completed by an accordion tech who didn't seem to like the box very much. I had previously done a similar conversion of a 4 voice Paolo with similar buttons and replacement keyboard so I know there are a lot of details to consider in a project like this, including filling in the reedblock chambers when switching from F reeds to A reeds, reprofiling the levers to set a new plane for the buttons, adjusting pallet lift and button height, etc. Just getting a correct replacement keyboard made is a job in itself, and in my case I also got a machinist to make the replacement buttons. The tech who finished the job didn't realize that the screws in the bottoms of the replacement buttons could be unscrewed from the resin tops, and actually ground them off!  The Paolo is shown on the right in the photo, next to one of the 2 row MM Busilacchios that are very similar in construction.

BTW there's one of those MM Busilacchios in BC for sale now on ebay (not by me) and they do sound very similar to the MM Paolos, although the action is different. Although I haven't seen that Busilacchio box and can't vouch for its condition and playability, it looked like great value when I checked the price, for someone wanting a box like this that already has a flat keyboard.

PG

« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 01:44:24 PM by pgroff »
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mory

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2020, 01:44:23 PM »

Any info on tuning on these mm+ m-m+ cents etc specifically the box in question Chris but others would be interesting Paul or others thanks All the Best mory
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boxcall

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2020, 02:07:41 PM »

Here's my pepperpot 1 row MM in original D tuning.
I haven't tried to figure out the tuning, I just play it, although maybe not as often as I should.
I'm sure many would know why (:)

Edit sorry I didn’t see this had turned to it side , it opens ok though.
And my 1 row is the same as the one Stephen Chambers owns (color and tuning).
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM by boxcall »
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Peadar

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2020, 04:58:49 PM »

Just out of idle curiosity....What would the usual basses be on a D/C#  19/4 ?
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mory

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2020, 06:57:57 PM »

Hi Peadar that would be  D/A  D/G
All the Best mory
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odonovanchris

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2020, 07:11:05 PM »

Thanks for all the information everyone. Loving the pictures and history.

The Jary fingerboard conversion looks great; he was able to keep the aluminium plate looking flawless. Has anyone ever tried to salvage the celluloid from a stepped grille and apply it to the flat grille? I'm in the process of marking out the new fingerboard and I think I might be able to re-use the celluloid. Never attempted this before though and I'm weary working with Acetone even though wikipedia says it's not all that toxic except for the flamability (correct me if i'm wrong). Probably a discussion for another thread.

I have a set of A-tuned paolo soprani reeds from another box which I'll look to incorporate into this during the tuning stage. I've attached a picture of the early stages of marking out the new flat fingerboard. Quite the task although I'm able to use the fingerboard from another paolo as an example of button spacing etc. I'll post an update when it's done. Cheers Lads.
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mory

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2020, 07:50:34 PM »

Any info on tuning on these mm+ m-m+ cents etc specifically the box in question Chris but others would be interesting Paul or others thanks All the Best mory
Do you not have any details odonavanchris?
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odonovanchris

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2020, 08:24:37 PM »

Sorry Mory I missed your question earlier. I haven't started on the reedwork yet. But when I do I'll figure out the tuning offsets to get an idea of factory tuning, however it has been fettled after original purchase from first glance - there's a couple of plastic valves and I see the characteristic dremel tuning marks.

Any info on tuning on these mm+ m-m+ cents etc specifically the box in question Chris but others would be interesting Paul or others thanks All the Best mory
Do you not have any details odonavanchris?
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boxcall

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Re: Paolo Soprani 2-Voice MM
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2020, 08:31:25 PM »

Just out of idle curiosity....What would the usual basses be on a D/C#  19/4 ?
my 19/4 D/C# OBDW Baldoni bros. has D/A D/G
my pepperpot has D/A F#/B
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