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[playandteach]

Menuhin had plenty of trouble with classical stuff too. He made his name very young, but then didn't really develop. Perhaps I'm a little annoyed as he was one of the laziest conductors I ever knew.

[Anahata]

Interestingly Stéphane had less problem with classical stuff than Yehudi with Hot Club swing 

A musical friend from long ago, with a background of rock and jazz but also some music theory, believed that jazz players are the ones who have it all. Most of them can sight read, and all can play by ear and improvise, and they have a deep understanding of the language of harmony. His favourite compliment for a musician he really rated was "xxx has BIG EARS"

Menuhin had plenty of trouble with classical stuff too. [...] Perhaps I'm a little annoyed as he was one of the laziest conductors I ever knew.

I haven't moved in your elevated circles, but that reminds me of discovering in my first year at Cambridge that David Willcocks was a hopeless orchestral conductor.

[playandteach]

I haven't moved in your elevated circles, but that reminds me of discovering in my first year at Cambridge that David Willcocks was a hopeless orchestral conductor.

Yes he was, but we mostly only saw David Willcocks with a choir in tow, so all his energy was in driving the choir, which is a surprisingly different skill set. And of course the best choral conductors are the ones who trained the choir in the first place, irrespective of their inability to control a stick. Choirs tend to need that extra relationship with someone, but then again most choirs are amateur (in the best sense of the word).

[Chris Ryall]

Was it you playing Symphony on a theme by Thos Tallis in the chapel, early 1974, Anahata?  Might have been late ‘73 😀

[Rog]

A few years back we had a memorable weekend melodeon workshop at Halsway, with JK (in 2013...so quite a while ago). When asked about cross row/jazzy sounding chords, JK was pretty dismissive of them, and expressed his dislike of 'sugary', syrupy melodeon playing as per A Cutting (he did mention his name). I’m sure they are now great buddies but at the time he sounded less than impressed with the playing style, as practiced by AC. He didn’t actually diss AC as a musician - I want to be clear on that. But JK didn’t seem to agree with that style of playing. Chords should he 'foresquare', like the folk tunes. He was most likely promoting the idea that the melodeon is a percussive instrument, and in that context a 'syrupy' style doesn’t work. So I don’t know if he and AC have ever performed together. Or if not, if they are likely to.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

 JK was pretty dismissive of them, and expressed his dislike of 'sugary', syrupy melodeon playing as per A Cutting (he did mention his name). I’m sure they are now great buddies but at the time he sounded less than impressed with the playing style, as practiced by AC.

That's strange. Sugary, syrupy is the last thing that would have occurred to me about Andy. Has his syle changed?

[Theo]

No syrup here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AJ2NGGQw6s

[Gary P Chapin]

A few years back we had a memorable weekend melodeon workshop at Halsway, with JK (in 2013...so quite a while ago). When asked about cross row/jazzy sounding chords, JK was pretty dismissive of them, and expressed his dislike of 'sugary', syrupy melodeon playing ...

He's kinda the Sean O'Riada of his set. An undeniable treasure and also a sort of fun cranky pants to read.

[Thrupenny Bit]

I can't remember where I've seen it, possibly in one of JK's books, but it was along similar lines to Roger's post.s
He doesn't like over complicating tunes using unusual chords.
I think his reasoning is that the traditional English tunes we play are dance tunes therefore need drive and oomph.
I agree entirely.

I have enjoyed two weekends in the company of Andy Cutting, and have known him through Chris Woods when he first started up with Chris. I think some of his classic tunes are sublime, full of unusual chording etc. I tend not to think of them as dance tunes, though I realise several are, often in the Continental style.
I love his excursions into our old manuscripts, and i think many were dance tunes except a few hundred years on we've forgotten the dance!
On occasions he has put a different spin on some Morris tunes, taking them out of context of the dance and here I'm afraid years of Morris kicks in and I feel the power of the tune is lost.

Perhaps my opinion is summed up best by saying there are times when tunes are lovely with unusual accompniament and times when keeping it simple and rumpty is the way to go!
Q

[Anahata]

When asked about cross row/jazzy sounding chords, JK was pretty dismissive of them, and expressed his dislike of 'sugary', syrupy melodeon playing as per A Cutting (he did mention his name).

Yes, I've been watching this thread and not said anything yet, but my first thought was that they have quite opposing views about melodeon playing and would not be a comfortable partnership.

I spent my formative years listening to JK and ever since then I have always found AC's tunes hard work to learn and play. I have to admit that he has a knack for finding harmonies that don't fit in the conventional way, but work well, something that many other players have tried to emulate with less success.

No syrup here
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AJ2NGGQw6s

If you played the sound track of that without saying who it was, I think few people would guess. AC's 1-row style, typically when he did lots of French-Canadian stuff with Chris Wood, is quite different from his usual 2.5 row style.

[Chris Ryall]

It’s not “unusual chords” outside the parochial world of the melodeon bass end. All Andy is doing is to play a chord from the scale of eg G - on a different bass. => 7ths

For minor chords eg ii=Am it always works, go down 2 notes

  C = CEG on an A bass is A,C,E,G = chord ii Am7.
  G  = GBD on an E (reversed) bass E,G,B,D = chord vi Em7

For major chords in the G scale you need 3rds out. A favourite of mine GMaj7

   B = B-F# on bass G is G,B,-,F# = chord I GMaj7. The missing 5th is “no problem”
         as it is a low harmonic of the tonic, harmonically weak

  E = E-B on C bass = C,E,-,B = chord IV Cmaj7, ditto.

 I’d agree with John K that Gmaj7 sounds sacharine in folk tunes. It is the ultimate  “relax” chord in jazz, often used to end a solo. But the other three are just fine in folk. I use them all the time.  It’s a big, actually “the” reason that some players like no 3rds on left end.

You cannot make turnaround chords with a tritone (F#~B, in the G scale) this way on triad based melodeon bass . Specifically chords V D7, vii F#min7b5. But both are there in right if needed eg 4 touching buttons G row, pull.

Andy gets his left end tension by playing eg B (B-F#) against a note adjacent in scale eg A, or E => sus chords. I love these as they work against major OR minor right end.  It ain’t rocket science, just try each chord on different bass and trust your ears!

2 no-no’s playing in G or its modes with 3rds in are A and B triads on any bass. One has C#, the other D# 😈 alien to the G diatonic scale and harmonically destructivd. But A triad on B bass is just finr, playing in  D 😀


thus endeth the lesson. Simple extended chords, and Andy has surely proven that they work in folk “with a light touch”?   Concur that John likes his chords much straighter. But they are a Folk generation apart, and John is quite capable of extended chording when playing with eg Royal Shakespeare Company   😉

[Julian S]

Whatever their differences in style and approach, the one critical thing I would say they have in common - they are both superb musicians to dance to at Ceilidhs on the one hand, and Bals on the other.

Julian

[Chris Ryall]

… and that’s “all about rhythm” 😉

[mudchutney]

I think if Andy Cutting and Karen Tweed could produce such an amazing album as "One Roof Under" then I'm sure AC and JK could produce something amazing also. 

[baz parkes]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this...

https://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/webrevs/rufcd08.htm

Andy Cutting Doing the English (with apologies to Ashley Hutchings...)