Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Luke Hillman]

Howdy, everyone.

I've been playing a 2-row for a few years now and want to expand my options and branch out into different styles (my current repertoire is mainly English, but I like continental stuff). I'm fantasizing about getting a 2.5-row. As you know, here in the States, it's practically impossible to try before you buy, even more now that we're all quarantined. So, even though I know there's no substitution for first-hand experience, I find myself wanting some opinions...

I love the sound of the Saltarelles I've heard, particularly the Connemara III and Pastourelle III. To my ear they sound a little... growlier? More boisterous?—than the comparatively refined and mellow tone of the Castagnaris (looking mainly at the Mory). Of course, I'm mainly hearing them all through YouTube. Does this comparison sound accurate to those of you who've heard these instruments in person?

I think LMM voicing is the bee's knees, so I want to have that option. I realize this will mean a heavier box. I'd love to still be able to play standing up, but maybe this is an aspiration I should abandon. I find conflicting weights given on different sites. I assume that all the instruments I've mentioned thus far are roughly comparable. True?

One thing I really like about the Mory is the switch behind the keyboard that lets you select voices as you play. Such versatility! Instruments like the Connemara III have stops on top, making them harder, if not impossible, to use during play. I see that the Rivage has couplers on the back of the keyboard, but I could only find one video of it anywhere (https://vimeo.com/172094432) and talk of it on this forum is scarce. Anyone have opinions on it?

Common knowledge on this forum seems to be that Saltarelle's quality is highly variable, which would normally send me over to the Casty side, but I do love the Salty sound. Are there other makes that sound similar that I should be considering?

Of course, what I eventually get might depend most on what the available market for decent used melodeons looks like. Return policies on new instruments this side of the pond are pretty terrible, so my inclination is to buy used and save money if possible. Any thoughts or tips about things I should be considering that I haven't mentioned here are most welcome. Thanks!

[Schnorbitz]

If you are going down the Mory route it is well worth looking at a Handry. The weight difference is negligible (the left hand is exactly the same for a start) and you get the benefit of a full 3rd row of accidentals which is really useful.

If it helps I can weigh my Handry. I’m always sceptical of published weights.

[Euan Brown]

Hi,
you don't say what configuration you are looking for?  D/G on your profile?  I'd  just make one point about the weight issue. There are two considerations if you want to  play standing up.  The total weight of the box and the weight  of the left hand side.  I play a 9 Kg (nearly 20 lb) Mengascini 3 row.  I used to play it standing no problems  and i think  up to 10-15 lb for smaller boxes is no problem.  The main issue  in my opinion is the weight of the LHS. It does not really mater how much is packed into the RHS (within sensible limits)  for someone of average strength and height.  I always asked for the LHS weight when buying boxes,   they are surprisingly variable.

hope that helps!
Euan

[Rob Lands]

I bought a Mory 20 years ago and remain very pleased with it. I traded up from a Pastorelle III and found it a noticeable improvement.  It is heavy, I tend to play it sitting down.  There are few things I miss on it - perhaps a low C and a low F but LMM's invite you to play in the top octaves where these notes and reversals (such as a D) are present and if I want to growl in F I really should be playing on a G/C or C/F!  If you can afford it I would but Castagnari.  - When I play out Morris I use a lighter box as I don't need the third row.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

I don't have a Mory of my own, but I had one on loan for a few months earlier this year. Very nice it was too. The one I borrowed suffered from having a half row which seemed to be a direct translation from a GC  (extra buttons in the squeaky zone) . Not good and I would watch out for that. Otherwise all was very good indeed. Played like a dream and all controls easy to access and  use.

I have a couple of friends who play them out for morris. Something I wouldn't dare do, myself, but they don't seem to have any problems playing stood up..

[Dave Praties]

I think a Mory would be a really good choice. The quality does not vary, they are all superb, and the half row notes can easily be changed at a later date if they do not suit you. I never play my Mory standing up, so can’t comment on that, but should be ok. You see people standing playing monster PAs.

[Chris Ryall]

I also say consider the Handry. I had a Mory for a decade, but it was moving to an 11/10/9 layout that truly opened up my play. The weight and cost difference is small

Pros/cons: You should consider deeply whether you really like the MML voicing. I have it on my van der Aa but rarely use other than ML bandonèon for tunes, or single voice for song. 2 voicing is a LOT cheaper and about 25% lighter.

Do you actually need to change voicing mid tune? Again, I never do in practice. Prefer to extend a melody by musical variation or some arpeggios, even an improvisation. I feel voicing change a bit “piano accordion”. Analogous to that modulation C to D that Country &Western guitarists like.  But … nothing wrong with it

A 12 or 18 base is a great investment, whatever you do 😀

Finally, are you happy playing in the main row keys, their minor and pull-major modes,  etcetera? If so a 2+5 system may well suffice. I commonly play my 3 row accs/D/G  in … Cm, Gm Bb or several blues keys. But … I’m more a singer than a session player nowadays, and seek protect my voice

Best, and keep safe. Chris

[ed] LM bandonèon is the best way to open up the upper octave if you are in DG system. D/G MM tremelo is truly squeaky, and a lot of players never use those buttons as a result. C//F is similar. There’s no big problem on a G/C or Bb/Eb system

[ed2] you don’t IMHO need chord 3rds at all. 1+5 “chords” are the way into “crossed” chord extensions. With practice dot in the 3rd on the right. Listeners  can’t tell  thr differnce, and with plenty off accs … it can be major OR minor! Far more flexible?

[Thrupenny Bit]

I've often had 'should I, shouldn't I?' conversations in my head about going from a 2 row to a 2.5 row, and so far kept to a 2 row 8 bass.
Last summer I was sat next to the bass end of a Mory in a session at a festival, and it was glorious, the sound was warm deep and lovely. Having time between that session and the next I wandered into the music tent, and after being asked if I'd like to try anything took them up on the offer and played a Mory for a while.
It responded instantly in true Castagnari style, good action and that lovely mellow sound was there.
I think it might be because it is slightly larger than my own Castagnari and the increase in size might take out higher frequencies generated when playing? Only a guess.....
Having controls to be able to switch mid-tune to bring in/take out thirds or low reed on the bass end, plus low reed on the treble means you can be creative within a tune which does give you options.

My problem is I have become very used to using the chin end accidentals frequently in the tunes I play. Having to adapt to a half row has always been a concern and something personally I've never resolved.
Also my choice of tunes means I'd rarely stray from the keys available on my 2 row, but might it open up more tunes? I don't know....
Perhaps two thoughts you might think about also.
Hence my continual thoughts 'should I, shouldn't I?'!!!
cheers
Q
( currently resisting moving ! )

[Anahata]

I wouldn't worry about being used to chin end accidentals.
In 2003 I bought a Saltarelle Connemara III (having previously mostly played 2 row boxes) and a week later I was recording with it, and using the accidentals.
For a long time after that, I was regularly playing that box and the two row Oakwood, using accidentals on both.
You quickly learn two layouts and switch unconsciously based on the feel of the box.
It might take a little longer if any of the accidentals are in the opposite bellows direction, because then your left arm need to learn too.

Also - yes, a new box will teach you new tunes, and you'll get into the habit of playing a different set of tunes on each box. That's mostly how I cope with/take advantage of my (not de-clubbed) Club II.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Thanks for the reassurance Anahata.
There's an awful lot of people I know on here cope with both systems. It is something others have said to me in the past, so perhaps I need to trust people's opinion.
I was building up to resolving the issue once and for all and.... lockdown!
Still, it can wait, patience is a virtue!
Q

[Stiamh]

I love the sound of the Saltarelles I've heard, particularly the Connemara III and Pastourelle III. To my ear they sound a little... growlier? More boisterous?—than the comparatively refined and mellow tone of the Castagnaris (looking mainly at the Mory). Of course, I'm mainly hearing them all through YouTube. Does this comparison sound accurate to those of you who've heard these instruments in person?

Nobody seems to have commented on this point. I think you are correct, and I think that is why, in the Irish-music world, Saltarelles appear to be more popular than Castagnaris, which I have heard people describe as "too polite-sounding".

Another thing that makes Saltarelles attractive to Irish players is that some models are designed so that the inner row of buttons opens the top row of pallets, thus giving a brighter sound on the main row, which for B/C and C#/D players is the inner row. You can see this in action clearly on this clip of Damien Mullane playing a Nuage with the grille off. I don't know which models currently have this feature - the Connemara ought to. Something you might want to consider if you are playing D/G. You may not want to have your G row brighter and louder than your D row.

The Button Box in MA is currently closed until 4 May at least, but I understand that their policy allows you to try a box for 2 weeks and return it for a full refund if you don't like it, provided that you pay the return shipping cost.

[Steve_freereeder]

Another thing that makes Saltarelles attractive to Irish players is that some models are designed so that the inner row of buttons opens the top row of pallets, thus giving a brighter sound on the main row, which for B/C and C#/D players is the inner row. You can see this in action clearly on this clip of Damien Mullane playing a Nuage with the grille off. I don't know which models currently have this feature - the Connemara ought to. Something you might want to consider if you are playing D/G. You may not want to have your G row brighter and louder than your D row.

Hmm...
Stiamh - I'm not convinced that is a Nuage, or if it is, it is one which has been much customised. Normally a Nuage is three voice LMM, and will have three piston stops on the top of the treble end. The box in the video only has two stops and as far as I can see, only two rows of pallets corresponding to the inner and outer row of buttons, although the darkness of the video makes it hard to be sure.

But certainly, the inner row of buttons is (unusually) operating the top row of pallets so that the sound does not risk being muted by the keyboard and lower portion of the grille.

The Nuages and Connemaras which I have worked on have had the outside row of buttons opening the top row of pallets, and the inner row of buttons operating a cantilever mechanism for the lower row of pallets. The cantilever mechanism has a hinge at the top for the pallet arms, so that basically the two rows of pallets have more or less the same length of pallet arm, and open by both the same amount of arc, which minimises any sound muffling on the inner row of buttons. 

[Stiamh]

Stiamh - I'm not convinced that is a Nuage, or if it is, it is one which has been much customised. Normally a Nuage is three voice LMM, and will have three piston stops on the top of the treble end. The box in the video only has two stops and as far as I can see, only two rows of pallets corresponding to the inner and outer row of buttons, although the darkness of the video makes it hard to be sure.

I think probably one of the stops has broken off or been removed - impossible to be sure because the video quality does not allow us to see if there is a hole or plugged hole, but there is certainly enough space between the two stops that are there for another one - the three are normally very close together. And two rows of pallets would be standard, surely?

Whatever the case for the particular box in the video, the OP may want to ask the seller about the row-pallet configuration before buying a Saltarelle.

Edited to correct the wording.

[Joan Kureczka]

Luke -- hopefully things will open up a little bit soon, and when they do you're welcome to come across the Bay and check out two of my boxes. I don't have the three voice, but picked up a 2.5 row, two-voice Salterelle in C/G back in November -- ideal weight and size on that one for me (not much heavier than my Super II) so the 3 voice would be a bit heavier than that.

I also have a three-voice, 2.6 row, 12-bass Loffet in D/G which is about as big as I care to get. It's a bit smaller and lighter than the Mory -- I've tried them and felt like I was trying to play a big suitcase. The Loffet has very lush sound, and three stops on the right hand side, and two on the basses.

Unfortunately, as you know, picking up used boxes of the sort you want here in the Bay Area is next to impossible (and these aren't for sale!) so mine came from the UK, either carried home by me or over by a friend. Something that won't be an option for a while.

But as I say you are welcome to at least see how these feel to you, once we can move around a little bit. And I agree with Anahata's comment  -- you tend to play different tunes on different boxes.

Joan

[Steve_freereeder]

I think probably one of the stops has broken off or been removed - impossible to be sure because the video quality does not allow us to see if there is a hole or plugged hole, but there is certainly enough space between the two stops that are there for another one - the three are normally very close together. And two rows of pallets would be standard, surely?

Having looked at the video again, I think you could be right about the removed stop. Also at first, I didn't think the visible pallets were long enough to extend far enough towards the middle of the pallet board to cover a third voice set of pallet holes, but now I think they do. Again, the video is too dark to let us see properly. I wonder whether the L voice reed block has also been removed in order to make the box lighter and give a more focussed sound on the MM reeds? The L voice air vent holes could have been closed off with the stop slider and the mushroom stop removed to prevent it being accidentally opened again.

[Luke Hillman]

Thanks so much for the wealth of information, folks. This is extremely helpful.

If you are going down the Mory route it is well worth looking at a Handry. The weight difference is negligible (the left hand is exactly the same for a start) and you get the benefit of a full 3rd row of accidentals which is really useful.

This actually raises another question for me, since I haven't closely studied the layout charts: I thought the .5 on a 2.5 was specifically to give you accidentals/reversals not available on the other two rows, and a full third row was to provide a scale in the next key (i.e., A/D/G). Is there any difference here? Do I get all the same notes on a 3-row that I'd get on a 2.5-row, plus some? I remember seeing a Saltarelle Solstice 12 on the buy/sell forum a while ago, and thinking it would be perfect if only it were a 2.5-row rather than a 3-row, but maybe I had it all wrong.

you don't say what configuration you are looking for?  D/G on your profile?

Yes, mainly interested in a D/G. Love the tone of a G/C, but since I mainly play English music for now, I want to keep to the keys used by the folks I play with. And thank you, good point about the weight of the LHS.

LM bandonèon is the best way to open up the upper octave if you are in DG system. D/G MM tremelo is truly squeaky, and a lot of players never use those buttons as a result. C//F is similar. There’s no big problem on a G/C or Bb/Eb system

Definitely interested in the LMM voicing due in part to playing a DG. Having to play my 2-voice box in the upper register is painful, when not playing for Morris.

My problem is I have become very used to using the chin end accidentals...

I use my chin-end accidentals, but I don't like them there. Definitely would prefer to have them in a place that made more sense. This, and having them available in both directions, is a big draw of a 2.5 (or 3)-row.

Here's another question. Somewhere on the forum, I saw someone (I forget who) say that it's pointless to have a 4th-button start on a 2.5-row box, since the accidentals are on the half row and you can have low notes on the chin end. But I've seen some videos of 2.5-row players using what are clearly chin-end accidentals. So... are chin-end accidentals still standard on 2.5-row boxes? And if so, do I still need to be looking for a 4th-button start so I can play tunes in G at a more comfortable pitch? Maybe you could weigh in, Anahata; I seem to recall you have a special layout for D/G...

[...] some models are designed so that the inner row of buttons opens the top row of pallets, thus giving a brighter sound on the main row, which for B/C and C#/D players is the inner row. [...]

The Button Box in MA is currently closed until 4 May at least, but I understand that their policy allows you to try a box for 2 weeks and return it for a full refund if you don't like it, provided that you pay the return shipping cost.

AH, so that's why the D row sounds so different from the G row on my box. Good to know and I'll pay attention to this, though I don't know whether I feel strongly enough about it (yet) to make that a required criterion for purchase.

If I understand Button Box's policy correctly, you can get a full refund, AFTER someone buys the instrument you returned (this applies to "special orders", which includes all the boxes I'd be considering).

Luke -- hopefully things will open up a little bit soon, and when they do you're welcome to come across the Bay and check out two of my boxes. [...]

Thank you, Joan! I know I keep saying I'll head over there at some point. At the moment I'm having to restrain myself from making all kinds of ill-advised purchases as I'm sitting here bored at home. But, this too shall pass, civilization will rise again, and there will one day be lemon-soaked paper napkins... and I'll come pay you a call. I hope you're doing okay over there!

[Steve_freereeder]

Thanks so much for the wealth of information, folks. This is extremely helpful.

If you are going down the Mory route it is well worth looking at a Handry. The weight difference is negligible (the left hand is exactly the same for a start) and you get the benefit of a full 3rd row of accidentals which is really useful.

This actually raises another question for me, since I haven't closely studied the layout charts:

You should take the time to study them; they could inform your decision about what instrument could be the best choice for you.

Here's another question. Somewhere on the forum, I saw someone (I forget who) say that it's pointless to have a 4th-button start on a 2.5-row box, since the accidentals are on the half row and you can have low notes on the chin end. But I've seen some videos of 2.5-row players using what are clearly chin-end accidentals. So... are chin-end accidentals still standard on 2.5-row boxes? And if so, do I still need to be looking for a 4th-button start so I can play tunes in G at a more comfortable pitch?

Again - have a look at the layout charts.
The Saltarelle 2.5 row boxes tend to have accidentals on the half-row and on the chin end in a lower octave. They are also 4th button start (for a D/G box anyway) because they also have the low notes on the 2nd button. Some have the 12+11 main keyboard layout which allows you to have the 4th button start and the chin end accidentals and not lose notes at the knee end of the keyboard.

The Castagnari boxes, e.g. the Mory, Dony, tend to have all the accidentals on the half-row (although this is not always the case - see here).

[...] some models are designed so that the inner row of buttons opens the top row of pallets, thus giving a brighter sound on the main row, which for B/C and C#/D players is the inner row.

AH, so that's why the D row sounds so different from the G row on my box. Good to know and I'll pay attention to this, though I don't know whether I feel strongly enough about it (yet) to make that a required criterion for purchase.

In my experience with Castagnari D/G and G/C 2.n row boxes, they have the design sorted very well: the combinations of the main grille, keyboard top grille, underneath keyboard openings (usually not visible on photos!), reed block placement and the mechanism design mean that the sound difference between the inner and outer rows really is minimal. It's not enough to worry me at all. (And I have a very critical ear, as some tuning/repair members of this forum will confirm!)

[Thrupenny Bit]

Might be worth spending a moment here
 http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,keyboard.html

and look at the respective layouts. It should answer some of your questions.

I've not heard of a box with a half row *and* chin end accidentals.
Some Castagnaris have a two button 'half row' labelled 'R' in their on-line catalogue. This means they are 'repeater' buttons. The box has chin end accidentals the the two buttons repeat them, as they are mechanically linked in some way.
The Castagnari 1914 has a two button row but these are the accidentals. The keyboard goes down into low notes like a Mory and doesn't have chin end accidentals .
Cheers
Q

Ah.... looks like Steve has answered much the same as I type.....

[Thrupenny Bit]

Ooops... it looks like I need to see the Saltarelle layout myself.
Didn't realise they had some chin end accidentals, but am not very knowledgable about Saltarelle.
Apologies....
Q

[Anahata]

Here's another question. Somewhere on the forum, I saw someone (I forget who) say that it's pointless to have a 4th-button start on a 2.5-row box, since the accidentals are on the half row and you can have low notes on the chin end. But I've seen some videos of 2.5-row players using what are clearly chin-end accidentals. So... are chin-end accidentals still standard on 2.5-row boxes? And if so, do I still need to be looking for a 4th-button start so I can play tunes in G at a more comfortable pitch? Maybe you could weigh in, Anahata; I seem to recall you have a special layout for D/G...

My layout for D/G (others have devised it independently) gives  me a low G and C natural without needing extra low note buttons i.e. 3rd button start without accidentals or 4th button start with accidentals. It's fully illustrated on the G-scale layout page. Compared with traditional layouts, you lose the pull D and the low F♯.

Now, with a 2.5 row box, what you can do is use the chin end buttons for low pitched accidentals.
My Saltarelle Connemara III had the usual four end button accidentals but an octave lower, and middle and higher accidentals and reversals on the half row. With the G-scale modification It was thus fully chromatic for nearly all of its three octave range.

A nice 2.5 row layout I've seen recently is on Paul Young's site. he uses my low note layout but adds a low and mid pull D, and has F naturals in both directions in both octaves too. As you can see from his description, it's a useful layout that enables playing in a good range of keys, and If I was going to get a 2/5 row box now I'd probably choose that layout.