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Author Topic: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?  (Read 9791 times)

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2020, 08:29:17 PM »

Anahata, I bought a micro HDMI to HDMI cable the other day to test out our reasonable digital camera's output - and yes, it provides very good video and reasonable audio to our TV directly, so would be great for using as a remote screen, but yes, I also didn't fancy taking it to the next stage with a video grabber to allow it to feed into the PC, as I'd also heard there can be complications.  But I don't think you'd get the same quality - isn't the main point of the video capture device to lower the resolution so that the streamed signal is small enough to feed through a USB cable?
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2020, 09:39:21 PM »

If your camera has an HDMI output, that should look very good (better than video shot by the camera, technically, because it won't have been compressed by whatever hardware the camera has inside it etc). But yes, you'd need hardware to take that signal and convert it to an input your computer could use which is entering into the whole wonderful world of HDMI capture hardware. If you conquered those associated bugbears, then you'd be sending that same video to eg Zoom, which will then take a huge dump on the bitrate and probably make the whole thing not worth while, anyway.

I bought a splitter cable the other day, and found my Motorola G6 doesn't have a mic input, unfortunately!

I'm afraid I didn't quite understand your point about which headphone socket to use - in this usb output mode I've just found how to use, it seems to be doing the same as your H2n.  Perhaps I'm not quite understanding your point about using it as an output for the call - surely it has to work as an input to the PC or phone, which does the outputting via Zoom conferencing?  I don't think the recorder monitor could take the input to the PC from the meeting and put it back through the recorder's monitor socket?

Hmm, the Moto G6 quick start guide I found identifies it as a headset port. Any chance it's the wrong kind of splitter?

So, with the H2n, I have the following set up:

PC <---USB---> H2n <---3.5mm---> My Headphones

Instantly, my headphones are hearing what the H2n hears. This is because my 'Input Monitor' option is turned on, in the h2n's options. It sounds perfect and has no delay.

But also, in my computer's Sound settings, I can select the H2n as not just an Audio Input, but an Audio Output, too. After setting it to be my default audio device, I can also now hear all of my computer's system sounds, such as eg I can watch a youtube video and listen to it through the H2n. The same would then extend to my video call tool of choice, so everyone else's wonderful words coming from a Zoom call could also be sent to the h2n if it was selected as the playback device. I can't hear what I'm /actually/ sending to zoom, but, that would have the same problem as goldwave, I imagine.

Ps if the sound sounds reaaaal messed up with dozens of weird 'clicks' almost on the h2n, try reconnecting the it and selecting the other sampling rate. For whatever reason, windows isn't getting this info, and it's important that both devices agree on this setting. For me, windows expected 48kHz. While you can also change this option in windows ([device] / properties / Advanced, dropdown box) it's a bit harder for me to explain that.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I think that's... roughly/exactly what you were after?
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2020, 09:48:46 PM »

I thought the videos were ok but very general.
In fact I immediately took the point about lighting, pointed my light the other way thus providing my morris friends with a decent image of me when chatting rather than a whited out face and stopping myself being blinded at the same time.
I have no idea why I didn't think about it, something I already know..... sometimes little snippets like that can lead you on to other things or remind you of such tips.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Anahata

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2020, 10:51:17 PM »

But I don't think you'd get the same quality - isn't the main point of the video capture device to lower the resolution so that the streamed signal is small enough to feed through a USB cable?

The main job of the videograbber is to convert the video signal into a streamed version of a video file, which is quite a different format. The resolution in pixels width and height may be the same, but the data is compressed. It needs to have a low enough bit rate for a USB cable, but USB2 can do far more than the bandwidth of a good fibre internet connection which allows pretty good viewing quality e.g. on YouTube videos, movies or broadcast TV streamed over the internet.

I know nothing about the complications when a videograbber is plugged into a PC, but you are throwing quite a lot of data at it in real time so I can imagine it might be tricky.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2020, 11:47:15 PM »

Thanks Gena, I'll try that (treating the recorder as an output device).  I assume there isn't a slow echo problem, presumably because Zoom conferencing doesn't allow a loop to exist?

And thanks, Anahata, for your explanation too. 
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2020, 11:02:47 AM »

Gena, having just tried it, regrettably my Zoom H2 doesn't seem to allow what you suggest, and I'd be interested to know whether your Olympus does, TB?  I tried checking the H2n spec to see if I could see any new features, and it has obviously had a complete redesign, but I couldn't specifically find this function mentioned.

I managed to get the PC to use the H2 as an output device.  It then shows that the signal is reaching it, and you can see that on the volume level bars.  However you can't seem to use it for anything - it doesn't allow you to record it, nor can the headphones hear it.  In fact the headphones are still hearing the mic inputs, while the USB input signal is being displayed. 

I suggest the reason may be that the H2 only converts audio to digital, not the other way round, whereas your H2n works both ways?  If so, there wouldn't be any point in the H2 system disconnecting the audio side from the headphones.  This would explain why I can't hear the usb signal, and I can continue to hear the mics through the audio preamp into the monitoring headphones.

Anyway, not too much of a problem, I'll just use my original layout using an audio cable, so that the audio to digital conversion is done by the PC rather than the H2.  It seemed to work pretty well.  I suppose I could test one against the other to see how they perform, but I may just take it on trust that they're both fine.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2020, 11:05:33 AM »

And I just realised that your monitor indication said 'input monitor', whereas mine just says 'rec monitor', which hints at this.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2020, 11:30:55 AM »

Howard, sorry I'm getting a bit lost.
If I go to Windows Sound settings, I have options of setting the webcam mic as 'communication' and currently have set the Olympus as 'recording device'
I presume I could set the Olympus as communication device  too but I currently can't try it at the moment.
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2020, 01:02:54 PM »

TB, what version of Windows are you on?  I seem to get different options.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2020, 01:06:37 PM »

So, I grabbed the zoom h2 manual and page 73 suggests that it can operate as both an input and output, with that output going to the h2's headphone/line out jack. I think it is supposed to be able to do it? Plus if it couldn't, there's not really a reason why it would add a sound output device to the pc, you'd think anyway. Plus if I turn off input monitor, I still hear the pc sounds.

I personally would suggest using USB to get the h2 sound into the pc, though, as even if they sounded identical, the USB connection provides power so I don't run the batteries down. It's possible, in the properties for most windows recording devices, to enable 'listen to this device' (w7 onwards) which will also allow you to hear what is being recorded, typically with the least delay windows can muster. It's not quite as good as having my h2n be the output directly though. I'll add some screen shots maybe...

Setting default audio device, or, default communication device, is really only encouraging programs to pick those devices for either input or output. Most programs that deal primarily with audio, eg audacity or zoom, Skype etc will have a drop down box with 'default audio devicd' in, but you can typically click that and pick which device to use from a menu, too. The device being the default will not change anything about it, particularly, but it does point other programs that just want to make sounds at me, eg my Web browser, in the right direction.
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Theo

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2020, 01:30:39 PM »

I’m exhausted just reading occasional bits of this topic.

I’m so glad I don’t t use Windows.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2020, 01:50:08 PM »

I'm on Windows 10.
I go Settings > System > Sound.
That opens a page where I can select input and choose Webcam or microphone.

On top left, I have Sound Control Panel in blue script.
Clicking on that opens a little box with tabs along the top.
Click on 'Recording', and I get options.

Here I have webcam and microphone next to the 'Microphone' options ( showing webcam by name or microphone, it doesn't know my Olympus is the mic ).
If I click on one, bottom left box allows me to configure the sound of the highlighted option.

It was this option, highlighting microphone ( and using the Olympus ) that I could see if a signal was getting through.
I hope that's reasonably clear.

( Theo: you have no staying power  ;) )
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Thrupenny Bit

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Gena Crisman

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2020, 02:22:07 PM »

So like, idk how familiar y'all are with Windows' perspective on sounds (and I guess I've been assuming y'all be using windows) but this is my sound window as opened from Windows Control Panel. This is sort of the 'place to go' to deal with your sound device settings. These screen shots are all from windows 10, Control Panel -> Sound, or Control Panel -> click the 'Hardware and Sound' green catagory text -> 'Sound'.

Windows' seems to think of this as, that there are Playback devices (things it sends sound signals to) and, independently, Recording devices (things it receives sound from) and sometimes the option for things that relate to both at the same time are in 'the other' place than you'd think. A device is going to be anything 'smart' that's connected to the computer with eg a USB connection, or, is just inside the computer (eg, a sound card that's part of your motherboard). My headphones are just tiny speakers on the end of a 3.5mm cable, and I plug them into a sound card - the computer doesn't really know what headphones I've plugged in, but, it knows about the sound card. A lot of stuff now functions as an audio device - I have a Behringer UMC 404HD audio interface that I use as my normal sound input/output solution. It's actually like, an XLR audio interface with midi I/O as well, buttons for mic/inst input, all that cool stuff. But... I also just kinda use it as my PC's sound card? My computer's actual sound card, the one that's part of the motherboard, sits completely unused (because it's trash).

PS - back in my day, you had to actually put an extra computer circuit board into one of your computer's expansion slots in order to have any kinda actual 'sound', so, I'm used to using the word 'sound card' to mean, thing what'll make audio (probably), which I guess is just 'sound device' now.

ref: sound devices 1
For the purposes of demonstration, I attached my h2n and set it as my 'default device' for both playback and recording - note that these are completely independent settings. I didn't bother with communications device. (because if I do I'll forget which device I'm supposed to be using normally). I typically will set the specific device I want to use in all of communication programs that I care about anyway, but, you could do that. If I click the playback device tab, the H2n, and click 'test' the little blue bars to its right would light up green and the h2n would try to make sounds. If I start up my preferred music player on my PC, whatever is my default sound device would also start to light up green. Because the h2n actually has a speaker in it (I think maybe the h2 doesn't? Not sure) it actually will just start making the sounds, and I could control the volume with the volume controls on the side of it.

ref: sound audacity
The default playback device is the device windows will use to send the majority of system sounds to. You don't actually need to set any device as the default unless you want to persuade a program that doesn't give you a choice. If I fire up audacity, I have my sound devices visible in the toolbar all the time, I'm... not sure if that's normal or not for audacity but I have it there/put it there. In my Mic list, I have all the recording devices my PC has active. In the speaker list, I have all the playback devices my PC has active. The top one, 'Microsoft Sound Mapper', if I selected that then it would take input from either the default audio device, or default communication device, if Audacity decided it was a communications program. I have it set to specific devices. If I set the recording device to the h2n, then, it records through the h2n. If I leave my playback dropdown as my behringer, because my headphones are plugged into the h2n, I don't hear anything. If I put the speaker dropdown to the h2n, then, yeah, I can hear everything, even if in Windows' sound options I've set my default devices to something else.

ref: sound some devices
For real time monitoring, some audio devices, like my 'Logitech G430 Gaming Headset' device I've attached a picture of, expose a 'Microphone' level on their playback levels tab. The actual headphones are just your typical headphones with a mic attached, no other electronics, that plug into a small USB dongle. In this case, if I mute or unmute the 'microphone' slider on this device, it will tell it to shoot that devices microphone signal back up the headphone wire. Some people like this because when wearing headphones, your voice can sound weird, or whatever. I believe it's called 'side tone'. Your PC's primary sound card with all the 3.5mm jacks etc probably lets you configure something like this, with mic in/line in etc. If you go for a 3.5mm cable/audio input based solution, you should check these options out maybe? This is however only a solution for some devices - most of mine do not offer this. For example, my h2n does not offer this specific option. And despite being related to a 'recording' setting, these options are in the playback properties.

ref: sound listen to device
You can also try and do this across devices, or where the device doesn't offer you this option, by visiting instead the Recording device sound properties. From there, there is a tab, since windows 7 at least, 'Listen'. This allows you to have windows patch one sound signal into another. I was able to set up my normal microphone to be sent to the h2n so I could monitor it. However, there is a small delay when doing this, so, it isn't perfect. I've just now set up my h2n to be 'listen to this device'd to itself, with real time monitoring also active on the h2n itself, and there's just a very short echo going on. It's... probably viable? It's not a long enough delay that you'd really reaaaaaly notice it but it is there, and you get a slight echo with both on. It's not a long enough delay that it triggers that phenomenon of not being able to say words properly when you can hear a slightly delayed version of your own voice.

As an aside, my uh, logitech headset there, defaults to side tone (hearing the mic) through the headset being on? I hate side tone. Fixing that option in windows was easy. Fixing it on OSX, was not so much, and it forgot my settings all the time.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 02:29:48 PM by Gena Crisman »
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Theo

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2020, 02:47:08 PM »


( Theo: you have no staying power  ;) )

I have more amusing/entertaining/fun ways to fill my time!

On the rare occasions I record video I just press record and the device does the rest.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2020, 03:13:52 PM »

Oh Theo, surely not, this is Melnet after all  ;D
Ok.... you might have a point!

I certainly just pressed record with my camera for the first time ( see earlier in the thread) and the result was as good as I could gave hoped for.
A positive outcome in this very long thread 👍
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2020, 03:35:08 PM »

Gena: Yes the first screenshot shows the box I was verbally describing.
I have my 'Communications' set to webcam and my 'Recording' set to the Soundcard's identified microphone, which actually is my Olympus recorder!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2020, 03:44:28 PM »

Theo, involved though it may be, I suspect this thread is crucial to any musician trying to carry on playing virtually in folk sessions during the lockdown.  I don't know if you've tried joining one of these Zoom sessions, but if you do you will find that hardly anybody manages to get the sound right.  Everybody has different bits of kit, and often they sound awful without realising it.  It's really tricky!

I'd just like to take my hat off to these techie whizzkids on this forum, Gena and Anahata, who are contributing their wealth of experience, knowledge and time, to assist us all.  And to TB too, for never yet giving up!
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Graham Wood

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2020, 03:56:54 PM »

I’m so glad I don’t t use Windows.

I doubt that Windows is the issue. My rule is if it don't work, send it back, and spend your money on something that does work.

If nothing seems to work then take up golf or some other hobby that doesn't involve electrons....... ;D
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2020, 04:09:21 PM »

Gena, re your 1:06 post above, I'm really indebted to you for the work you're putting in!  P73 is talking just about two-way audio interfaces, not USB or part-USB ones, and although the text is slightly difficult to interpret, I don't find that I can input USB via the cable and output the audio from the H2 on headphones, regrettably.  It seems the H2n has an internal monitor speaker, which the H2 doesn't - maybe this means that they had to include external digital input to audio output functionality in the new model too?  I may be wrong here, but I did set the H2 as an output audio device as you suggested, without any luck.

However, I do now agree with you again about going back to using the USB output function, with the headphones plugged into the PC, following more experiments today.  What I've found is that this greatly cuts down background noise on my system, and I expect therefore also background noise in the signal passed to the meeting.  To avoid latency issues I'll just have take off the headphones when playing.  However, even if I could use the H2 on the way back to the headphones too, wouldn't it then exhibit much the same latency issues with that signal?
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Sorting the sound on a webcam mic?
« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2020, 04:31:15 PM »

Gena, I read your 2:22 post as best I could, and while much of it was a little above my paygrade, I recognised most of the settings pages from Windows.  My head is now pretty scratched, but I think the upshot is that I can't easily improve on what I've now got?  Others seem to think so too, from the comments I've had today from a chum who also attended Wednesday's music session.  We met this afternoon on Zoom conferencing to swap notes.  He has some very good studio kit, and can't understand why it won't work better with Zoom meetings.  He believes however that his upload broadband speed of 0.1MHz (variable) is ruining it.  I'm inclined to agree, as his mobile phone on 4G is clearly much better at both video and audio.
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