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[BobM]

So I took a punt on my GC. I agree with Bob's assessment regarding the chords being used in the recording, so, right now I'm doing:

 Draw   | Press  | Draw   | Press  |
 Am  D  | G   G  | Am  D  | G   G  |

 Draw   | Press  | Draw   | Draw  P|
 Am  D  | G   G  | Am  Am | D   D G|

In my book that is... actually not too bad, air balance wise? But I found that I am hitting those lead-in note/s pretty hard at the end of the 8th bar on the press, with my air button open. That's probably the main thing that's letting me go around forever. I guess my question to you Bob is, a) How do you opt to play those lead in notes from the B back into the B, in terms of bellows direction, and b) How would you rate your ability to use the air button while playing to manage air within your bellows?

Good points, I'll get onto it tomorrow..

[Julian S]

I've been checking my chords against the recording - and comparing tge latter with the 'official' dots - which themselves differ from the recording in slight detail.
I haven't found a problem with 'air management' but that might well be down to my box, as well as my use of air button and bass. I also noticed that I use a C chord on the first notes of bar 3 B part, and on bar 5 - unlike Mr Paris. Just sounds more interesting to me. And that G in bar 8 is important I agree in helping the lead back to Bar 1. The dots on that bar read A B A D E F but the recording is definitely different - my ears think A B A B C D...??

J

[BobM]

We don't know what type of instrument is being played on the La Chavannée recording, it could be a 12 bass to keep the bellows close?
I'm going to go with the A- options apart from bar 7 where I'll use a C chord to get the bellows back. Using the a C chord to replace the other A-'s in the B section make the sequence sound too much like the A section IMO, I like the contrast between them.

Julian S, can you explain the pros and cons of the G + A reversed note please?

[Julian S]

My extra buttons are Eb/C#,G#/G, A/Bb, Eb/C#, G#/G and A/Bb. I've got extra basses as well - Eb/Bb and G#/B.
The reversals mean, for example, that I can play the first four notes all on press then the next three on pull. The run C, B, A, G can be played in either direction or push/pull. So I think about chords and work out treble to suit if possible.
There isn't really a downside although extra buttons mean a heavier box - mine is a 3v as well. There is obviously a learning curve and I certainly haven't fully got to grips with my G/C - particularly in playing in different keys. It's certainly interesting learning the same tune on different instruments - next project is La Mal-Aimable...
Sessions hereabouts (when they happen !)are D/G but I'm very fond of French music as well.
From my memory Frederic Paris plays a 8 bass btw.
J

[BobM]

The reversals mean, for example, that I can play the first four notes all on press then the next three on pull. The run C, B, A, G can be played in either direction or push/pull. So I think about chords and work out treble to suit if possible.

Is there a downside then? I remember someone else mentioning it. I'm getting my box swing tuned next week, and still being new to the instrument if there's a benefit it may worth considering? Does it hinder the bass side at all?

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Can someone tell me if this Fred Paris? It looks like photos I have seen...I think.

[Julian S]

The reversals mean, for example, that I can play the first four notes all on press then the next three on pull. The run C, B, A, G can be played in either direction or push/pull. So I think about chords and work out treble to suit if possible.

Is there a downside then? I remember someone else mentioning it. I'm getting my box swing tuned next week, and still being new to the instrument if there's a benefit it may worth considering? Does it hinder the bass side at all?

I'm not sure what instrument you have Bob - mine is a Pariselle two and a bit row with six extra buttons on a part row...
J

[BobM]

The reversals mean, for example, that I can play the first four notes all on press then the next three on pull. The run C, B, A, G can be played in either direction or push/pull. So I think about chords and work out treble to suit if possible.

Is there a downside then? I remember someone else mentioning it. I'm getting my box swing tuned next week, and still being new to the instrument if there's a benefit it may worth considering? Does it hinder the bass side at all?

I'm not sure what instrument you have Bob - mine is a Pariselle two and a bit row with six extra buttons on a part row...
J

It's a standard 21 treble, 8 bass, G/C with accidentals, perhaps I need to start a new topic about it. I always work out the bass side first, and find the RH fingerings afterwards.

[Julian S]

Forget everything I said about my extra buttons then Bob !

J

[BobM]

Forget everything I said about my extra buttons then Bob !

J

Good idea!

[BobM]

So I took a punt on my GC. I agree with Bob's assessment regarding the chords being used in the recording, so, right now I'm doing:

 Draw   | Press  | Draw   | Press  |
 Am  D  | G   G  | Am  D  | G   G  |

 Draw   | Press  | Draw   | Draw  P|
 Am  D  | G   G  | Am  Am | D   D G|

In my book that is... actually not too bad, air balance wise? But I found that I am hitting those lead-in note/s pretty hard at the end of the 8th bar on the press, with my air button open. That's probably the main thing that's letting me go around forever. I guess my question to you Bob is, a) How do you opt to play those lead in notes from the B back into the B, in terms of bellows direction, and b) How would you rate your ability to use the air button while playing to manage air within your bellows?

Hi Gena,

Take my comments with a (newbie) pinch of salt, but if i'm opting for the A- and the phrase ending and the beginning of the repeat it can only be a draw, and opting for a C can only be a push? (G/C) So I'm practicing using a C chord at the end of the 1x B section, and a A- at the beginning of the 2x, which solves the issue for me.
Also, without knowing which the exact notes that you're playing it's hard to understand your air issue, but my original query was about running out of air, and not having too much of it. At the moment I'm getting through without having use the air button. But it is "getting through", and not a faultless performance being talked here..

Bob.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

...At the moment I'm getting through without having use the air button. But it is "getting through", and not a faultless performance being talked here..

Bob, it is normal good practice to use the air button for air management. This may be the root of your problem. I would not expect to play a tune without using it. The pushes and pulls are rarely completely balanced. With practice it becomes subconscious.

[Julian S]

I think that developing subtle use of the air button - a bit like shallow breathing - is very important. That is easier on some instruments than others and equally some are more air hungry.
I'm using it quite a bit when I play Ganivelle - my thumb rests on the lever conveniently.

J

[Gena Crisman]

Also, without knowing which the exact notes that you're playing it's hard to understand your air issue, but my original query was about running out of air, and not having too much of it. At the moment I'm getting through without having use the air button. But it is "getting through", and not a faultless performance being talked here..

Oh, ok, this gave me the opposite impression:

I'm running out of bellows by the end of the repeat of the second section.
...
the performers bellows appear to going mainly in and out, whereas mine are almost one long pull.

I took the latter to be the cause of your issue, but I guess not - my mistake!

My experience is that every 2 bars of the B music pretty much balance out, but I do use the air button to drop the air from the last 2 bars of draw, hence my comment. If you need more air in the bellows, then given the choice, it's probably better to use the air button, and play the chords you want to actually play.

[BobM]

Also, without knowing which the exact notes that you're playing it's hard to understand your air issue, but my original query was about running out of air, and not having too much of it. At the moment I'm getting through without having use the air button. But it is "getting through", and not a faultless performance being talked here..

Oh, ok, this gave me the opposite impression:

I'm running out of bellows by the end of the repeat of the second section.
...
the performers bellows appear to going mainly in and out, whereas mine are almost one long pull.

I took the latter to be the cause of your issue, but I guess not - my mistake!

My experience is that every 2 bars of the B music pretty much balance out, but I do use the air button to drop the air from the last 2 bars of draw, hence my comment. If you need more air in the bellows, then given the choice, it's probably better to use the air button, and play the chords you want to actually play.

I've got a long air button which in my early days (ie last month) I sometimes had slightly pressed down, losing air. So now I've got a habit of keeping my thumb off it which hasn't caused me any problems, until now that is.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

I've got a long air button which in my early days (ie last month) I sometimes had slightly pressed down, losing air. So now I've got a habit of keeping my thumb off it which hasn't caused me any problems, until now that is.

Riding the button isn't a bad thing.  Quite the opposite. Trouble is, you have to learn to control it. It takes time and practice. Time and practice is what you need to give it 

I would suggest you keep trying to make it work for you. You are likely to learn most from playing the tunes where it seems most difficult.

I have a clear memory of going through the phase you're going through and how difficult it felt when I started.  Funnily enough,  what I don't have is a clear memory of moving past it. It happened without  me realising.

The impossible becomes normal. Like learning to change gear in a manual shift car.

[BobM]

I've got a long air button which in my early days (ie last month) I sometimes had slightly pressed down, losing air. So now I've got a habit of keeping my thumb off it which hasn't caused me any problems, until now that is.

Riding the button isn't a bad thing.  Quite the opposite. Trouble is, you have to learn to control it. It takes time and practice. Time and practice is what you need to give it 

I would suggest you keep trying to make it work for you. You are likely to learn most from playing the tunes where it seems most difficult.

I have a clear memory of going through the phase you're going through and how difficult it felt when I started.  Funnily enough,  what I don't have is a clear memory of moving past it. It happened without  me realising.

The impossible becomes normal. Like learning to change gear in a manual shift car.

Now I know how the air button is used, I'll be fine with it, given time. Onwards and upwards.. 

Bob.

[BobM]

Not a video but here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpmGfutjaxU

Sorry Greg, but here he plays it in G, and the chord choices are very different compared to the English/Session version for that reason.

I'm happy to be proved wrong. As I said, I'm not sure. I wish I could find the version I used as a reference, when I did it in C. I'll keep looking.

[The La Chavanee version is the only one I can find, now. Guess I'll withdraw from the fray, I played it on the C row of a CF. Doesn't really relate ]

I've taken a leaf out of Eshed's (G/C) book, and swapped the Amin chords for CMaj's and after re-learning the RH part it's completely solved the bellows problem. "All"s well that ends.."

[Dick Rees]

Of all the buttons on the box, the air button is the most important.

[BobM]

Not a video but here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpmGfutjaxU

Sorry Greg, but here he plays it in G, and the chord choices are very different compared to the English/Session version for that reason.

I'm happy to be proved wrong. As I said, I'm not sure. I wish I could find the version I used as a reference, when I did it in C. I'll keep looking.

[The La Chavanee version is the only one I can find, now. Guess I'll withdraw from the fray, I played it on the C row of a CF. Doesn't really relate ]

I've taken a leaf out of Eshed's (G/C) book, and swapped the Amin chords for CMaj's and after re-learning the RH part it's completely solved the bellows problem. "All"s well that ends.."

It's really useful to know what type tuning type is being played on the TOTM videos to help (beginners) understand what's possible with regard to their box. When I heard a "B" bass note being played on a version with the bellows going in and out as you might expect, I deduced that it's not being played on a G/C. Then  when I viewed Eshed's  G/C version with easy bellow reversing, but playing a C rather than a Amin the lights came on.

"Of all the buttons on the box, the air button is the most important."

The air button aspect was about trying to play a smooth reversal close to the end of the bellows outward travel, and I'm starting to integrate it more now..

Bob.