Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...  (Read 2271 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Roger Hare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
  • Urmston, Lancashire, U.K.
Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« on: May 17, 2020, 03:32:47 PM »

Help!

1) I have fairly frequently come across a slur when a tie is meant, eg: (F4 F2) instead
of F4-F2.

2) I've now come across what looks like a tie when a slur is meant, eg: B-c, which I
assume should be (Bc).

The first of these I spotted when playing around with TradMusician a couple of years ago,
the MIDI playback went bonkers. It looks OK in the printed score.

The second, I've been vaguely aware of for a while, but only just ear'oled an instance
where the MIDI playback was corrupted (using EasyABC1.3.7.7). I can't see any effect on
the printed score.

Are these known 'problems'? Have they arisen because the syntax of the ABC language has
altered, or because folks have been a bit cavalier about writing their ABC code?

I think 1) may have been discussed before, but I can find no trace of a query about 2).

Thank you.

Roger
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 03:37:02 PM by Roger Hare »
Logged
For more about Manchester Morris, The Beech Band Folk Club or anything else,  please use the private messaging facility.
My (large) ABC Tune Book is here.

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 04:12:21 PM »

The second example e.g. B-c is rightly flagged as a error by abcm2ps.
I don't think there's any reason to think there's been a change in ABC syntax: a slur using () was always a slur, and a tie was always a tie. It's possible to print what was intended in either case, of course, and it might not look any different.

It's likely that abcm2ps is being used for print based output, and abc2midi for the MIDI output. They are different programs by different authors, and their code (open source) is used by many other programs. So there are two separate ABC parsers at work, and  I believe that abcmidi is particularly intolerant of errors, while abcm2ps tries hard to guess what you meant, hence the garbled MIDI output.

To be fair, if there are syntax errors in the input, you're not strictly entitled to any expectations in the output!
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Roger Hare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
  • Urmston, Lancashire, U.K.
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 04:50:54 PM »

1) The second example e.g. B-c is rightly flagged as a error by abcm2ps.
I don't think there's any reason to think there's been a change in ABC syntax: a slur using () was always a slur, and a tie was always a tie...

2) It's likely that abcm2ps is being used for print based output, and abc2midi for the MIDI output. They are different programs by different authors, and their code (open source) is used by many other programs. So there are two separate ABC parsers at work, and  I believe that abcmidi is particularly intolerant of errors, while abcm2ps tries hard to guess what you meant, hence the garbled MIDI output.

3) To be fair, if there are syntax errors in the input, you're not strictly entitled to any expectations in the output!

1) I presume you ran abcm2ps explicitly? Interesting, I might try that. Looks as if EasyABC is getting it wrong somehow.
I asked about a possible change in ABC syntax because I think there is one instance where something has been changed,
( [...] or !...! replacing +...+ from memory), so I'm a little antsy about the possibility of it having happened elsewhere,
and my having missed it.

2) Correct - these are the underlying programs in EasyABC.

3) Agreed! Garbage in Garbage out..

Thanks. I think I'll just ignore 'em. I wonder what the original transcribers actually meant...
Logged
For more about Manchester Morris, The Beech Band Folk Club or anything else,  please use the private messaging facility.
My (large) ABC Tune Book is here.

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 07:38:53 PM »

1) I presume you ran abcm2ps explicitly?
Yes, as usual, because I'm an incurable long term command line junkie (Linux bash, not Windows). One benefit is you see all the error messages. I've made it easy by creating small scripts so I don't have to remember and type all the switches and can go straight from ABC to viewing the .ps file. It's not quite WYSIWYG, but with various simple tricks a dots refresh is only about three keystrokes away.

Quote
I asked about a possible change in ABC syntax because I think there is one instance where something has been changed,
( [...] or !...! replacing +...+ from memory)
Yes, that's a real change that has happened, but unrelated to slurs and ties.

Quote
I wonder what the original transcribers actually meant...
When I get the error message on a tie, it's usually because I've typo'd in in a wrong note.
It's very likely that someone didn't understand the difference, and if it rendered in print as expected, had no reason to know they'd done anything wrong.

I've downloaded all sorts of weird ABC and just corrected or restyled it to my preferences without worrying about how it got like that.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Gena Crisman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1041
  • 🇬🇧
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2020, 08:32:41 PM »

Sometimes I kind of wonder why ABC actually bothers to even make the distinction between a slur and a tie. Like if you penned a score yourself, with an actual pen, can you even actually write something to make the distinction? Is it just for the audio component? If so... does abc2midi even do anything different when it encounters a slur? It doesn't to my ear... sigh, I bet there's something in the manual...

https://ifdo.ca/~seymour/runabc/abcguide/abc2midi_body.html#articulation

OK great, based on this, unless you actually use %%MIDI trim x/y to change the note length in the name of articulation, the slurs actually just do nothing to midi playback - effectively all notes are played as if they're slurred. So... why wouldn't you write the interpreter to try and avoid throwing a fit whenever someone incorrectly ties or slurs notes? Why not just treat them as the same thing and vary behaviour based on if the following note is different? Why is the reaction:

B-C? You can't possibly tie a B into a C!! How can you do this? This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you have two notes tied together with a curvy line and not be trying to combine their respective lengths together into a single note!??

Well, in any case, now that I know the real, true correct way to write ABC notation now, I have composed the attached tasty little number. I can assure you it sounds very distinct. Good luck playing this one correctly, humans...
Logged

Dick Rees

  • Neo-Luddite
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1240
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2020, 09:43:06 PM »

Sometimes I kind of wonder why ABC actually bothers to even make the distinction between a slur and a tie. Like if you penned a score yourself, with an actual pen, can you even actually write something to make the distinction? Is it just for the audio component? If so... does abc2midi even do anything different when it encounters a slur? It doesn't to my ear... sigh, I bet there's something in the manual...

https://ifdo.ca/~seymour/runabc/abcguide/abc2midi_body.html#articulation

OK great, based on this, unless you actually use %%MIDI trim x/y to change the note length in the name of articulation, the slurs actually just do nothing to midi playback - effectively all notes are played as if they're slurred. So... why wouldn't you write the interpreter to try and avoid throwing a fit whenever someone incorrectly ties or slurs notes? Why not just treat them as the same thing and vary behaviour based on if the following note is different? Why is the reaction:

B-C? You can't possibly tie a B into a C!! How can you do this? This is outrageous! Good luck playing this one correctly, humans...

"Humans", or in AI terms...meatheads.
Logged
"You're making the wrong mistakes."
...Thelonius Monk

"I never made one of my discoveries through the process of rational thinking."
...Albert Einstein

Cogito ergo bibo.
...Bacchus

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2020, 11:51:22 PM »

Sometimes I kind of wonder why ABC actually bothers to even make the distinction between a slur and a tie.
I think it's a good principle to have different notation for semantically different things. Slurring is a hint about interpretation or style of playing, whereas a tie is a method of making a single note whose length is the sum of the lengths of tied notes.
Staff notation uses the same printed notation for both, because a human reader can distinguish them by context.
And one day someone might write a MIDI interpreter that tries to interpret slurring...

Quote
why wouldn't you write the interpreter to try and avoid throwing a fit whenever someone incorrectly ties or slurs notes?
I agree that it could accept either notation and put a slur/tie-like symbol over notes, or combine notes if they are the same pitch. If it did, I'd want at least to have the option of making it warn me about syntax errors, because I like to get things right and the ABC code might later be copied to a less forgiving environment.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2020, 12:40:10 AM »

I think it's a good principle to have different notation for semantically different things. Slurring is a hint about interpretation or style of playing, whereas a tie is a method of making a single note whose length is the sum of the lengths of tied notes.
Staff notation uses the same printed notation for both, because a human reader can distinguish them by context.
And one day someone might write a MIDI interpreter that tries to interpret slurring...
Agree with all that, especially the first two sentences.

The sound playback on MuseScore (which I assume is MIDI generated, though I may be wrong) is actually pretty good at distinguishing between slurred and non-slurred notes. And tied notes are played correctly, of course.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Roger Hare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
  • Urmston, Lancashire, U.K.
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2020, 07:15:43 AM »

...I've downloaded all sorts of weird ABC and just corrected or restyled it to my preferences without worrying about how it got like t
Ta.
I agree with everything you said before I inserted the ellipsis. I too remember 'bashing' about on Unix/Linux systems
with my 'home-brew' scripts, etc.

I'm a little wary of having missed another 'change' in the language, when one has actually occurred (albeit relating
to a different part of the ABC language). The [...]/+...+ one  turned my hair white before I got on top of it. My own
program which does a little 'added value' manipulation of ABC files now does quite a reasonable amount of checking to
look for obsolescent stuff like this, plus some checking for 'stylistic errors' which are not strictly ABC errors, but which
look a little 'odd' (eg: breaking a string in the middle "^like
that"
or a chord [A2B
2C2]
like that - ho hum :(). This error checking has been very successful, and has allowed me to make hundreds
of corrections to slightly flaky tune specifications in ABC 'legacy' files - just not the slur/tie thing...

I've wondered if folks don't 'understand the difference', or if they don't listen to the MIDI output, and only look
at the score? As some folks have said in this thread, the score looks pretty much the same for a tie or a slur.
As some folks have also said, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the sound produced when a slur
is present, and when it's not...

I've been a bit hesitant about changing someone else's ABC, because I'm not 'sure' that I know enough to do it with
accuracy. Six years into music lark, and I'm beginning to be confident enough to do exactly as you suggest! (see above,
para. 2) 8).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 07:54:25 AM by Roger Hare »
Logged
For more about Manchester Morris, The Beech Band Folk Club or anything else,  please use the private messaging facility.
My (large) ABC Tune Book is here.

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2020, 10:55:13 AM »

I am probably guilty of this error.  I haven't had a musical education so my knowledge of musical syntax comes from what I've picked up along the way, much of it imperfectly.  I wasn't fully aware of the difference between a tie and a slur - a lot of references simply say that a tie joins notes of the same pitch, a slur joins notes of different pitches, to which my response is "so what?"  The explanation that a slur is an aid to interpretation is often missed or not clearly explained.

The other aspect is that I have not sat down and learned ABC in detail from start to finish.  When I find I need something I look it up.  If what I want is a curvy line to connect notes and a pair of brackets does that, why would I look any further? 

I'm interested in the MIDI output only to the extent that it gives me the shape of the tune, to help me work it out as I am predominantly an ear player and struggle to read from notation.  I don't expect the MIDI to be nuanced, so I wouldn't notice any difference.  I haven't had any playbacks crash because of errors in my ABC, so ABCExplorer must be fairly robust in this regard.

If a slur signifies playing legato, is playing two notes of the same pitch legato any different from playing them tied?  Wouldn't they both sound the same?

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2020, 11:14:43 AM »


I've wondered if folks don't 'understand the difference', or if they don't listen to the MIDI output, and only look
at the score?

I'm one of them people who don't give a fig about the midi output from abc. If I want to create a midi rendering I use something more capable.

If I want to know what a tune can sound like I either find a recording of someone playing it, or (if it hasn't been recorded) do what I like with it from the dots.

I find abc midi playback pretty uninspiring.

The tie slur error is generally self evident and the meaning obvious. If it isn't, do what you like with it. Subtleties of performance can't be defined by dots, anyway.
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2020, 12:22:57 PM »

I actually rely on the MIDI output to learn tunes, so it is important to me. I can't play from dots, so to learn a tune from a written source I'll copy it out in ABC and play it back (if I can't find a version on line).  I find ABC is great for this, and much quicker than more sophisticated  score writers.  I also use it as a check when I've written out a tune from memory.  However I expect the playback to be fairly clunky and unnuanced, it's just to give me an idea of the tune which I can then work on. 

I don't recall anything crashing because I'd used the wrong ABC code, and it doesn't seem to matter if I've used a slur instead of a tie.  Both the playback and written output seem to be OK.

I use the printed score only as an aide-memoire to help me recall a tune I already know. Even then I can struggle to make sense of it.






Roger Hare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
  • Urmston, Lancashire, U.K.
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2020, 12:49:50 PM »

1) I actually rely on the MIDI output to learn tunes, so it is important to me...

2) ...I expect the playback to be fairly clunky and unnuanced...

3) ...I don't recall anything crashing because I'd used the wrong ABC code...
1) Moi aussi.

2) Yup! It can be improved however by the addition of accompaniment chords, and I've even attempted on
occasion to spice up tunes which would ordinarily be played on pipes by adding a drone. Quite effective, but
yeah, still pretty clunky...

3) Yes, crashing is fairly uncommon in my experience, but I've encountered a few instances where the
code will produce an OK score, but will (for instance) get the repeats and/or 1st/2nd play wrong when
the tune is played back, or get note lengths wrong if a note is split across line boundaries. Not relevant
to my initial query, but if one does rely on the MIDI to learn a tune, it can be 'important'. Solution:
specify start/end repeats and 1st/2nd play specification 'correctly', and make sure there are no line
breaks in 'odd' places...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 12:51:52 PM by Roger Hare »
Logged
For more about Manchester Morris, The Beech Band Folk Club or anything else,  please use the private messaging facility.
My (large) ABC Tune Book is here.

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2020, 02:05:52 PM »


... I can't play from dots, so to learn a tune from a written source I'll copy it out in ABC and play it back...

I suppose my point is that an abc midi rendering is an unreliable source to learn from, for all sorts of reasons.
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2020, 06:40:35 PM »

Not as unreliable as my sight reading :)

Gena Crisman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1041
  • 🇬🇧
Re: Using a slur when a tie is meant, and vice versa...
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2020, 08:31:33 PM »

I think it's a good principle to have different notation for semantically different things.

I would concur, but, I would urge one to not lose sight of the fact that: no such distinction can be made in written music via this method. A tie across different pitches is a slur, a tie across the same pitch is a tie.

Like, I can see that there are several reasons to accept both - and (...) syntax, the bracketed method allows you to declare slurs across many notes. But any situation where the interpreter could assume that actually you mean a slur and not a tie, or a tie and not a slur, I think matches exactly the conclusion any human would reach, be that conclusion 'correct' or not. It's like secretly using the 'wrong' homonym when writing a sentence out - having the ability to do it simply isn't productive.

However, I guess it's that I simply mildly disagreed with the growing vibe that any end user would really be responsible for mistakes & problems that occur as a result of this rather pedantic distinction. My conclusion rather is that there's probably some considerable 'tech debt' associated with tying notes in abc2midi that no one is prepared to/in a position to pay off. While from an if-wishes-were-horses perspective it should be a trivial fix, a window was left open and birds got in and it's just become a bit of a mess and we all have to put up with it. A brief perusal of the abc2midi changelog further gives me that impression, specifically dotie().

I believe the conclusion of the thread is, no, it is not due to an ABC change, it's pretty much because they just look identical.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal