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Author Topic: To declub, or not to declub?  (Read 1621 times)

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Emre Enercan

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To declub, or not to declub?
« on: May 30, 2020, 09:46:58 PM »

That is the question.

I myself have a clubbed hohner club CF and to be honest, I only come across troubles so rarely, only with the treble C button, thus forcing me to use another chord and switch to pull just so I can play that D, the Eb on the bass really didnt effect me so far, however I find it rather useful on bass walks, havent gotten to use the chord once :D

I'd love to hear your opinions on the subject.
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Elliot Warburton

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2020, 10:22:55 PM »

I've learned both Club and unclub and I've got to say I personally don't find a whole lot of use for that Eb chord either. The gleichton is super useful for tunes in the box's relative minor key (eg Dm on a CF). I personally am now going to declub my Club box as I've learned the system and have found that the advantages are easily replicated by just having a reversal of the V or the inner row (ie the gleichton note) in the accidental row. I'd say that unless you have the time/brain elasticity to be able to conveniently absorb another system of box, it's worth declubbing. I'd recommend keeping the original reeds though, and changing an accidental to have that reversal still so you can still do those smooth runs.
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Dick Rees

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2020, 11:03:26 PM »

I vote no change. The club can easily cover 90% of the "standard" repertoire and in changing it into just another 21+ box denies the expanded set of changes it has in an 8 bass.

If you're going to alter the box, go all the way to a 16 bass LH...
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Anahata

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 11:27:37 PM »

If you're used to the Club system there's a lot to be said for staying with it. It can do everything the other system can, and quite  a lot more.
I have one Club box and have no intention of declubbing it.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2020, 12:07:43 AM »

Club system is good and has no negatives once you get used to it. It opens up all manner of rt hand chords, or easy arpeggio rt end variations. 

I got Theo to => club my much loved Casta Lily 5 years back. I play 3 row now, but a Lund protegée had fun with it, presently with son in law who is a singer guitarist. He’ll truly enjoy it. Advice = don’t declub.  Rather explore its potential

The Eb chord issue is more complex. It’s the IV subdominant interval in Bb key, and so mainly useful if you play with brass orr woodwind people. Or should you like mixolydian (b7th) tunes in F. Also useful for Cm dorian as it carries the characteristic G natural note. So it depends a lot on “what you play”. As ever, but it is there for a reason. 🙂
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 12:26:09 AM by Chris Ryall »
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penn

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 10:05:40 AM »

I have three club boxes bought in the first flurry of MAD and before I’d really reached any kind of style with my playing. Two have already been de-gleichtoned, but all have the extra bass.  So I did learn the club system alongside the standard 2 row d/g from the beginning. There are some tunes I can only play on club, but I’m seriously thinking about wholly de clubbing them all now. Since I joined the morris, I have tended towards an English style, and even tho I enjoy playing these boxes, there comes a moment when I hit the problem key and it just halts my progress. Life is becoming too short to relearn these tunes for the club and I’m sure I’d play them more if they were in the now more familiar unclubbed state. So it will be out with the club very soon.
Gren
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Eshed

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 01:03:10 PM »

Some things that are easy on a regular box are slightly harder on a club.
Some things that are easy on a club are impossible on a regular box.

Make your choice.
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Dennis Steckley

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2020, 08:27:50 PM »

I'm a purist, I guess.  If it's a club system, then leave it alone!  If you don't want a club system, then don't buy one.  It's that simple.
 Changing things to meet one's own personal "taste" is a potential disaster for anyone else who gets the box down the road.  I've bought a couple of nice club boxes online from sellers who didn't know what they had, and i lived in fear that one of the boxes would have been declubbed, forcing me to spend extra dollars to get it reclubbed again.  Fortunately, they had not been altered.
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Emre Enercan

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2020, 09:10:56 PM »

Some things that are easy on a regular box are slightly harder on a club.
Some things that are easy on a club are impossible on a regular box.

Make your choice.

Well put!!
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Dick Rees

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2020, 12:10:02 AM »

Some things that are easy on a regular box are slightly harder different on a club.
Some things that are easy on a club are impossible on a regular box.

Make your choice.

Slightly different slant.
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JohnAndy

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2020, 12:55:41 AM »

That is the question.

If I've understood correctly about the club system, it has 2 differences from the "standard" system:
1. The inner row button for the 5th note of the scale in the middle octave plays the same note on push and pull (on a C/F, this is the note C) - where the standard system would have C on push and D on pull
2. The bass note and chord button pair which would produce the subdominant of the inner row key on a standard system box (Bb on a C/F box), on a club box will produce Bb on the pull but Eb on the push (for a C/F box).

My thinking about this is as follows:
About difference number 1: good idea, you gain a C on the pull which you didn't have before. To gain this, you gave up a D on the pull, but you do still have a D on the pull, on the other row, so you just have to get your fingers used to using this other button whenever you need a D on the pull. However... you got rid of your duplicated D on the pull, but you still have a duplicate C on the push. Why not get rid of this duplication as well? Go one step further, and get a Dutch Reversal! (this would mean that your inner row push C would be changed to a push D, so that you have both C and D on both push and pull).
About difference number 2: yes, I like this change too. Bb is an important chord in your inner row key of F, but not so important that it needs to be available on both push and pull. All the notes of the Bb major chord are available on the pull on the right hand side. You don't need Bb chord and bass on the push. So it's a good idea to use those button positions for some other purpose - though not necessarily for Eb.

I only come across troubles so rarely, only with the treble C button, thus forcing me to use another chord and switch to pull just so I can play that D

You would have to play D on the pull even on the standard system (on a CF). So this isn't really a disadvantage of Club system versus standard system. It is solved by the Dutch reversal though.
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JohnAndy

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2020, 01:57:54 AM »

the Eb on the bass really didnt effect me so far, ... havent gotten to use the chord once :D

Even if you don't ever need an Eb chord, the button might be useful if you want Cm.

Eb chord button over C bass button gives Cm7 which is often an OK substitution for a Cm chord.
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2020, 08:46:44 AM »

John, if you can get used to it, the Dutch reversal makes a lot of sense. Being able to play the same note on adjacent buttons, giving you 3 different ways of playing the same note using 2 seems overkill.
I'm rethinking my layout altogether and I'll put it in my lockdown projects so I don't clog up your thread.
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Dick Rees

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2020, 01:09:22 PM »

I've been enjoying working out "You'll Never Walk Alone" on my Club II.  Listening to Gerry and the Pacemakers over and over to fix the tune in my head has been particularly satisfying under current conditions.
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JohnAndy

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2020, 03:12:44 PM »

John, if you can get used to it, the Dutch reversal makes a lot of sense.

Ha ha, yes, getting used to it is the thing.

Mike Rowbotham converted my Saltarelle Cheviot to have the Dutch reversal a few months ago, and I'm very pleased with it - but there are still loads of tunes that I used to be able to (almost) play but now I can't, until I get round to relearning them with new fingerings to allow for the reversal.

I wouldn't want to go back though.
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rees

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2020, 04:49:09 PM »

You don't need Bb chord and bass on the push.


Sorry but I strongly disagree. Amongst other things, I play a lot of English dance tunes. I use Bb push (C on a D/G box) all the time.
It's difficult to explain - tension, suspension, sus4, major 6th, etc. before returning to root bass/chord.
I could post a video but must plant my tomatoes out first!
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Gena Crisman

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2020, 06:01:26 PM »

I agree with Rees - I like having the push chord duplicate, and I certainly use it, especially as an accidental-flipper. I mean, I do want that extra chord, too, but... idk, I kinda want both.

Also that extra chord should be obviously useful in playing the middle? row's dorian-converted-to-minor scale? So like, the key of A minor on a D/G or G minor on a C/F? I guess you could make an arguement for replacing it with the chord for a key shaper, rather than flatter, but, I always got this vibe that club system focus was about enabling you to play in keys flatter than your rows suggested.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2020, 01:39:42 AM »

You don't need Bb chord and bass on the push.


Sorry but I strongly disagree. Amongst other things, I play a lot of English dance tunes. I use Bb push (C on a D/G box) all the time.
It's difficult to explain - tension, suspension, sus4, major 6th, etc. before returning to root bass/chord.
I could post a video but must plant my tomatoes out first!

I also agree with Rees.
The unisonoric Bb bass/chord - C bass/chord on a D/G box - is a really useful feature and gives the standard non-club box much of its character, especially its suspension/drone facility.
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JohnAndy

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Re: To declub, or not to declub?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2020, 01:40:48 AM »

Gena, Rees and Steve, yes, I take your point, I know really that I'm losing something by not having a C push.

There's no such thing as a free lunch; it's all trade-offs.

I have found up to now that whenever I have changed a layout, then after the change there are things that don't work so well any more, often things that I hadn't really been aware that I was using - but hopefully the new things that I can do will make it worth while.

Instead of C push I have D# bass and B major chord (my standard B chord is B minor). I'm sure lots of people will see that as unnecessary but I use it lots and I'm really happy with it :-)

« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 01:46:54 AM by JohnAndy »
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