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Author Topic: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row  (Read 1238 times)

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Steve C.

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Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« on: June 02, 2020, 08:23:03 PM »

Hello all:
Another Q, this regarding Anahata/G-scale DG tuning (thanks for super information on E chord, my cup runneth over).
On the chin button, the "usual" layout is F/Eb.
For a reason I cannot remember, one of my recent boxes had the button reversed to Eb/F but I cannot remember why.
Was there a reason/possible benefit for this?  I never noticed one way or the other until just getting ready to get another box and seeing the difference.
Regards,
Steve C.
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2020, 08:28:57 PM »

Eb played with your "thin" B chord is B Maj and leads you to E (maj or min). In this case you have to think of it as D# although it's the same note.
D natural with your "thin" B chord is B min which has the same relationship to D major as Emin has to G major.
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2020, 08:46:21 PM »

And with a pull F you can make an F chord on the rhs.
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2020, 09:29:29 PM »

That layout is very common on Castagnaris etc
What is the counter-argument for the Push F/Pull Eb layout favoured by Hohner?
(I'm sure it has been discussed at various times in the past.)

I've got both layouts on different boxes and perhaps really ought to standardise as that button is getting used more often!
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2020, 09:39:33 PM »


I've got both layouts on different boxes and perhaps really ought to standardise as that button is getting used more often!

There are benefits in both options. There is not really a "best". Why not keep your options open?
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2020, 09:54:29 PM »

A push Eb ( D# ) is my most used accidental, often along with the push B bass.
I have no idea why Hohner do it the other way, and have changed it on my Hohner to be a push Eb!
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 10:01:03 PM »

(Nb C~ = Thirdless C chord.)

There are several reasons why one might choose one direction for one's accidentals over another, on a 2 row DG, anyway.

F has about as many pros as cons being push vs pull.
If it's push, you can:
  • play it with push only D notes + A notes to form a Dm chord (or D~ chord)
  • play it with your G chord to convey G7.

If it is pull, you can:
  • play it with pull only C natural notes + A notes to form an F chord.
  • get away with play it over your A basses.

Also, if you consider your other accidental button's direction:
  • F and Bb and D sound good together. Then again, so do Eb and Bb and G.

There's... I mean I could go on for a while. The main reason for the flip though, in my opinion, is the D#/Eb -
  • Push D# works well with B major
  • Eb works well with C~ chord
  • Occasionally kinda works with A chord
  • Doesn't really work with other basses?
  • Pull D# does mean you can combine with a pull B and pull F# to offer a pull B major chord! But you can also do that on the push if it's push... so... ... yeah.

To explain, Eb is to A minor as Bb is to E minor (so, think 'jump at the sun'). Also for playing it over a C~, I mostly do think of C as a pull chord, so it can be confusing to convert E over C~ chord (pull) to Eb over C~ chord (push).

I'm a (D/G) push Bb + push D#orEb, and pull G# + pull F person. For the type of music I play/write, I have never encountered a situation where I truly regretted reversing both plates. I think I am quite driven by combining my left hand & basses with my right hand options in order to explore strange places. Other uses I have seen are using the accidentals as ornamentation which may favour the reverse, and I must admit I am not big on small ornaments in my playing. I find with what I have, I prefer my options for finding harmony in this orientation anyway, but I suspect that's based on ornamenting inside row vs outside row tunes?
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 10:08:31 PM »

Martin Ellison uses a push Bb into B, Ab to A and pull Eb up to E as part of his instantly recognisable style.
It's the opposite to what I'd choose but it just wouldn't work that way round.
https://youtu.be/GKihs_uxPGE
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 11:17:15 PM »

I turned my D/G Lily F/Eb chord over twice in the 1980s. As so often on our instrument, so much depends on what you play.

If you like bright music, and tend to modulate into keys with more #s then push Eb works well. It also chimes with the the D# in your LH push B chord, the characteristic turnaround for tunes in the harmonic E minor. That’s why it’s there in the classic Vienna/Paris salon layout, which we have inherited. It makes your leading note Eb => E leading note a bit awkward, but fits better with Lt end chords. So … are you melody or chord based?

The Ab/Bb plate decision was much easier for me. Any Blues approach to variations or impro likes to preserve the E G A Bb B (D) E classic blues scale run of pull notes,  D being a rock on G row unless you have gone club or Dutch system. The same notes offer bebop variations in G. So that’s pull Bb and push Ab. The letter is pretty alien to folk music anyway. See sign cartoon below 😉

[ed wrt Steve’s post below] … I think it depends so much on what you play, Gm is a very important woodwind and brass key. I had it that way for several years. Now on 3 rows I have, and love full rt Bb scale on pull. Gm dorian is its 2nd mode of that. I play against simple pull G C or Bb basses and it seems to work. Song is … more  forgiving.

Echo his comment on push G. Another reason to not have 3rds? 😉
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 11:08:40 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 11:48:55 PM »

Regarding the Bb/G# accidental, my choice is opposite to Chris's.
I prefer a push Bb because that is useful when playing a melody in G minor. It then gives you the same bellows directions as for the more common G major, so all you have to do is hit the push Bb button instead of the push B natural button. When combined with the thirds taken out on the LH side, you have a bare fifth G chord on the push to go with the melody too.
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Steve C.

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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 01:22:55 PM »

I like the G#/Bb and use the G# push quite often.
The F/Eb, as has been said, for me can go either way.
2-row diatonics, who knew the wonders!
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 02:37:14 PM »

I like the G#/Bb and use the G# push quite often.

G# was probably the last accidental I started using with any regularity. As a result, I never really figured out the advantages of it as a push note.

Would you be able to share some info about how you use it?
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Dick Rees

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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 04:35:51 PM »

I view the accidentals in two ways:

1.  As another note of the scale, grace note or "minor second transition" or...

2.  As a part of a RH chord.

The function tends to dictate the directional preference as to push/pull.  I'd like to have both options on two buttons of a helper row.

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2020, 07:58:50 PM »

G# was probably the last accidental I started using with any regularity.  Would you be able to share some info about how you use it?
In regular play … the leading Maj7 chord in A harmonic minor. Yes, the scale’s i chord really is Am,maj7. For what it’s worth it’s also the i chord in A melodic minor

If you play in Dm and improvise, then it is the characteristic note of the D dorian #4 scale, DEFG#ABC, and I find that rather beautiful. Good example is Cliff Stapleton’s ‘Blue Sausage Island’, as valiantly played here by Clive, of this parish 👏

General folk or Morris music?  Irrelevant. See sig banner below 😉
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 01:10:31 PM »

Gena, I would use it here, for example:
attached Bluebell Polka
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2020, 02:16:23 PM »

Right, yeah. That's probably one of the places I use it too. Coincidently, it's a tune that also is looking for that F over G chord in the last part (if one plays it in C) and so likes the push F. You can get by with a pull F, though.

I don't know if the direction of the G# makes a big impact on your options really for that tune. I have my g# in the wrong octave so copy Anahata's approach.

Similarly, Chris' suggestions, A harmonic minor is going to be a very pull heavy key on a two row DG, and the G# is going to harmonise with E~ and A~ pull chords, and the draw only E and C are again going to encourage the G# in that direction I think. However, having a draw F puts you at a disadvantage as Dm chords are your main option for air relief.

D minor can be a bit of a stretch on a 2r8b DG, based on my recent experiences anyway, although dorian should be slightly better. However, the F and G# we have are in opposite octaves to one another, so, probably not going to be able to do much there. Clive's video description says he's playing a CF, so he's effectively using that Bb to E minor relationship we see in DG land, so dorian #4 is best found starting on E on a DG, or maybe A would work too. Looking at the tune's score (so, set your mind to D dorian again), most of the G# fall between chord beats, excepting the last bar. I'm not sure what chord that bar asks for, but I imagine on a CF you have something that'll work regardless of accidental direction.
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Re: Anahata layout for DG: 1st button on G row
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2020, 08:09:33 AM »

Not being able to play a G7 is the biggest disadvantage of that layout, to my mind.
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