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Author Topic: Morris!  (Read 43259 times)

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HallelujahAl

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2009, 11:29:26 AM »

Quote
is this the place to ask about anglican (largely) clergy neutering pagan traditions?



No, they didn't. Morris dancing used to be closely connected with the Church, and many old church records provide evidence for this. The idea of morris being a pagan tradition is a fairly recent invention.
Thanks Pauline for pointing this out - there has been a lot of excellent highly respectable academic research undertaken in this field in recent years and there is absolutely no doubt that the pagan mythology associated with Morris is in fact a recent (late 19th Century/early 20th Century) invention. John Cutting's works in particular have dealt with this issue in great (and very interesting) detail. Certain self-appointed ethno-musicolgists from the 19th C. promoted the idea of Morris being rooted in paganism as a way of trying to make it more sexy (putting it alongside Frazer's The Golden Bough etc and trying to catch the shirt-tails of that particular fashion), and as a subtle way of attacking the church (no one needs to do that btw as the church is perfectly capable of attacking itself thank you very much  ;D).  In fact the opposite couldn't have been more true. The church was often responsible for funding and promoting Morris dancing, a lot of church financial records from the Early Modern period to date providing the evidence. A great number of clergy (including yours truly) are proud to be associated with such a great movement. However, John Cutting's research does also point to a more quotidian traditional source for Morris Dancing & music making: historical and artistic records often show Morris as a form of legitimised beggery. Perhaps another link with the church???
 ;D
AL
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Keithypete.

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2009, 12:35:59 PM »

How I wish my old side would have worn cricket whites and excluded women. Maybe then the Rural Dean might have joined in. (F.O.L.)
Quote
is this the place to ask about anglican (largely) clergy neutering pagan traditions?



No, they didn't. Morris dancing used to be closely connected with the Church, and many old church records provide evidence for this. The idea of morris being a pagan tradition is a fairly recent invention.
Thanks Pauline for pointing this out -  . John Cutting's works in particular have dealt with this issue in great (and very interesting) detail. Certain self-appointed ethno-musicolgists from the 19th C. promoted the idea of Morris being rooted in paganism as a way of trying to make it more sexy (putting it alongside Frazer's The Golden Bough etc and trying to catch the shirt-tails of that particular fashion), and as a subtle way of attacking the church (no one needs to do that btw as the church is perfectly capable of attacking itself thank you very much  ;D).  In fact the opposite couldn't have been more true. The church was often responsible for funding and promoting Morris dancing, a lot of church financial records from the Early Modern period to date providing the evidence. A great number of clergy (including yours truly) are proud to be associated with such a great movement. However, John Cutting's research does also point to a more quotidian traditional source for Morris Dancing & music making: historical and artistic records often show Morris as a form of legitimised beggery. Perhaps another link with the church???
 ;D
AL

I take issue with the bit  "there has been a lot of excellent highly respectable academic research undertaken in this field in recent years and there is absolutely no doubt that the pagan mythology associated with Morris is in fact a recent (late 19th Century/early 20th Century) invention." Absolutely no doubt???? Are you kidding???  What is a 'Hey'? It is a figure of 8. Laid on its side it becomes the symbol for ininity on your old manual focus camera. The ancient Hebrews would have recognised this endless path from 'Walking the way of blood' as part of the ritual of the blood covenant. I'd want chapter AND verse before I accept there is 'Absolutely no doubt' Al.
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Re: Morris!
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2009, 12:45:13 PM »

<snip>(and partly,  I heard, because the insurance was cheaper!)
The insurance for all three orgs is provided by the same person (who's wife plays melodeon)

Quote
Women musicians are not allowed to go to Ring meetings, although I think that occasionally they turn up to play for the dancing during the day. There is no way they would be allowed to join the feast
I have been to a number of Ring Meetings where this thorny problem was got around by invition the lady musicians to the top table as guests. Trigg was the last one, they have a fine concertina playing lady.

Quote
Otherwise, Ring sides are allowed to have female musicians, but not dancers. Some will dance with women as guests in the side on informal social occasions, but many will frown on this, and some sides don't even like to share a dance spot with other sides who are not all-male.
The ring only lays down rules for the ring meetings so sides can have as many musicians of any sex as they like except at ring meetings. The number of old school won't dannce if women are present sides is now very small.

Earbrass

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2009, 12:49:32 PM »

Morris dancing used to be closely connected with the Church, and many old church records provide evidence for this.

I believe that Christmas and Easter are also "closely connected" with the church - doesn't alter the fact that both festivals have pagan roots. Christianity has a long history of adopting and adapting older traditions to ingratiate itself with the locals. Just saying... ;)
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2009, 12:57:19 PM »

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What is a 'Hey'? It is a figure of 8. Laid on its side it becomes the symbol for ininity on your old manual focus camera.

Don't think too many of our ancient forebears had a manual focus camera - however, as a starting point for your chapter and verse (a very religious requirement if I may say) perhaps you could start by reading:

History and the Morris Dance: A Look at Morris Dancing from Its Earliest Days Until 1850
by John Cutting. It's readily available  - here's a link to one on sale on eBay now.

Cutting's study is an excellent place to start to find out about this issue. As an academic by training I much prefer to follow proper research rather than chinese whispers, which is why I set about studying this issue before I decided to get involved with a local Morris side.

As to Christmas & Easter, I agree that the Church 'Christianised' festivals that undoubtedly pre-dated the Christian era, and nowt wrong with that in my opinion. What you'll find out, if you read the research is that Morris Dancing cannot be dated back any further than to around the Late Middle Ages/Early Modern period - a decidedly Christian era.
AL
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Keithypete.

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2009, 01:05:13 PM »

The Ring has a place, and will continue to exist - I hope. But its been an unbelievable amount of fun and I have made some fantantastic, lifelong friends through mixed morris sides. I wonder what happened during major conflicts such as the First World War when most of the dancers would have gone off to fight? How on earth did morris survive?
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Falseknight

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2009, 01:09:09 PM »

Northwest traditon has Morris associated with the festival/act of Rushbearing - very strongly tied in to the church.  Just curious as to how the relationship developed.
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Earbrass

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2009, 02:44:11 PM »


History and the Morris Dance: A Look at Morris Dancing from Its Earliest Days Until 1850
by John Cutting. It's readily available  - here's a link to one on sale on eBay now.

Cutting's study is an excellent place to start to find out about this issue. As an academic by training I much prefer to follow proper research rather than chinese whispers, which is why I set about studying this issue before I decided to get involved with a local Morris side.

AL

Thanks for that link, Al. Looks interesting - think it may go on my Xmas list!

What you'll find out, if you read the research is that Morris Dancing cannot be dated back any further than to around the Late Middle Ages/Early Modern period

Not saying you're wrong, Al, as I haven't researched it myself (and as another academic by training, I'm wary of making claims for which I don't have evidence), but the Abbot's Bromley Horn dance is supposed to date from at least 1226 (according to http://www.abbotsbromley.com/horn_dance ) - but maybe that doesn't count as "Morris". It does suggest the possibility, though, that even if, as you say, Morris didn't arrive on the scene until the later middle ages, it may have been related to previously existing traditions. Or not. I really don't know - I'm a bit of a newcomer to the whole trad music scene.

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TonyRussellDavis

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2009, 03:03:33 PM »

Did I said sommat?? Turned my back for one day and now we're on page 4!
Hi there, Keith Bunny -  :M good to know you :||:. All best, Black Sheep Tone :|glug.
PS. Black Sheep Dave sends regards too :|glug :|glug.
PPS. Oakwood Jim has kept in touch too.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2009, 03:05:28 PM »

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Morris didn't arrive on the scene until the later middle ages, it may have been related to previously existing traditions.

Perhaps, but no one knows and no proper research has surfaced with that kind of supposition.

I think what I'm trying to say is that it's easy for people to say that such and such tradition is an adaptation of early pagan rites, indeed, that's the story that Cecil Sharp & Co., promulgated at the turn of the century. But the facts don't exist to support such a claim - it is, I'm afraid, much more a case of wishful thinking, rather than an idea based on any solid social, anthropological or even (dare I say it?) historical evidence.

And Church records exist to show the solid support that it gave to Morris. The rush-bearing tradition is another case in point where church and folk come together to support each other. Again John Cutting's book talks about this - in fact I think the frontispiece shows a picture of the rush-bearing tradition.
AL


BTW Tony  - do you mind? We're trying to have a good old fashioned chin-wag here?
 ;D
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TonyRussellDavis

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2009, 05:04:16 PM »

Watch it Al, or we'll send the "boys" in >:E T.
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Selam

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2009, 05:51:36 PM »

Wow - what a knowledgeable lot! :D

So what 'brand' of morris does everyone do? Borderline are (unsurprisingly) a border side! What are the differences? I proudly told a friend that I was starting morris and they looked at me in disdain because it wasn't Cotswold!  :-\



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HallelujahAl

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2009, 06:20:25 PM »

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Watch it Al, or we'll send the "boys" in  T.
Scary stuff I have to admit  ;)
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mikesamwild

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2009, 07:22:55 PM »

Hutton the Bristol University historian says in his books that we have no information other than archaeological evidence for prehistoric pagan ritual.  Although Romans, Greeks and Saxons were pagans weren't they and they left written evidence  , as are many societies still on the planet today so can anthropologists tell us anything?
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juker

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2009, 09:55:57 PM »

Did I said sommat?? Turned my back for one day and now we're on page 4!
Hi there, Keith Bunny -  :M good to know you :||:. All best, Black Sheep Tone :|glug.
PS. Black Sheep Dave sends regards too :|glug :|glug.
PPS. Oakwood Jim has kept in touch too.

woah! sounds like secret men's business  (:)
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ganderbox

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2009, 11:43:08 PM »

I have been to a number of Ring Meetings where this thorny problem was got around by invition the lady musicians to the top table as guests. Trigg was the last one, they have a fine concertina playing lady.


That would be Viv. Trigg were a bit worried that they would have to stop going to Ring meetings as they might have no male musician to play for them. Seems they have solved the problem...good for them! From what I understand, they were the life and soul of many Ring meetings.
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Pauline from Cornwall

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Ollie

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2009, 11:46:26 PM »

The Ring has a place, and will continue to exist - I hope. But its been an unbelievable amount of fun and I have made some fantantastic, lifelong friends through mixed morris sides. I wonder what happened during major conflicts such as the First World War when most of the dancers would have gone off to fight? How on earth did morris survive?

It very nearly didn't. An awful lot of young dancers went out to fight in the Trenches and not many came back. I think a couple of the Adderbury men were killed on almost the same spot as George Butterworth, the folk song collector and arranger, but I'm not sure. There was a radio programme a while back called "Morris on the Somme" about the Wheatley men, where John Kirkpatrick provided the music. The reason it survived is because people like Cecil Sharp and Mary Neal went around collecting the dances and started the revival. I'm a member of Cambridge Morris, one of the oldest revival sides in the country, being founded in 1924. Thaxted are the oldest, being founded in 1911, although there was actually dancing in Cambridge in 1910, but that's a bit of a touchy subject  ;) ;D In the form of the Travelling Morrice, CMM continued the collection of dances from the traditional sides by touring the Cotswolds every year (in fact, the last show of the very first tour at Adderbury in 1924 coinsided with the death of Cecil Sharp almost exactly).

I certainly hope the Ring survive. I thoroughly enjoy Ring meetings every year; CMM always go to Thaxted, which is a highly recommended event for any fan of Morris. I personally think Cotswold looks best done by single sex sides - I nearly said men's sides, but then remembered Pecseatan  ::)) rather than mixed sides, but I don't want to stop people doing what they like. Mixed and women's sides are fine, and I think it is great that the tradition has evolved that way.
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Re: Morris!
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2009, 09:49:57 AM »

I personally think Cotswold looks best done by single sex sides - I nearly said men's sides, but then remembered Pecseatan  ::)) rather than mixed sides, but I don't want to stop people doing what they like. Mixed and women's sides are fine, and I think it is great that the tradition has evolved that way.
I completely agree with Ollie. I'll have to be a grumpy old reactionary and say I think (Cotswold) morris is at its best danced by a top notch mens side but top notch womens sides like Pecsaeten are definitely better than rubbish mens sides. I have done "one off" dances or workshop sessions with mixed sides but generally prefer "single sex".

It's good that there are different morris organisations representing the different attitudes that exist. People have a choice that way. I think it's probably true to say that most Ring sides belong to one of the others too.
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ganderbox

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Re: Morris!
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2009, 11:25:14 AM »

I think (Cotswold) morris is at its best danced by a top notch mens side but top notch womens sides like Pecsaeten are definitely better than rubbish mens sides.


I don't think you need consider yourself a grumpy old reactionary for saying this. I say the same all the time. It's really annoying when fat old men who can't get their feet more than half an inch off the ground, or even dance in time to the music, try to claim that only they have the ability to dance morris properly, and that women's sides, no matter how good, simply "can't do it".
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Re: Morris!
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2009, 12:00:04 PM »

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I wonder what happened during major conflicts such as the First World War when most of the dancers would have gone off to fight?

Have a listen to "Dancing at Whitsun" done by amongst others Tim Hart and Maddy Prior.

I was at a June Tabor concert a year or so back and she got very worked up about all male Morris sides before singing it.

I kept very quiet being a (presently inactive) member of Winchester Morris Men which is still very much all male.

Brian
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