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Author Topic: Are we at a point of change?  (Read 13566 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2020, 11:20:58 AM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p069ty6d

Thanks for posting that. I knew that Andy likes to call a box a box, but I didn't know he wrote The Abbess for his wife's dog.
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Greg Smith
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2020, 11:35:35 AM »

Gosh, what a thread. The D/G remains to me a great piece of kit for English and perhaps Irish sessions. But it limits us to maybe 1% of possible keys and modes. Some of which are beautiful.  eg I truly missed Gm, though got into that with fiddle players.

So that’s why I carry a C#DG, played as accs/D/G. English sessioning has been glorious for me (maybe less for others in the session 😉) but going back to singing I’ve truly enjoyed playing same in Bb, C, Cm and of course Gm! It feels very different. It also suits my voice

So yes, I’ve transitioned. It’s always been there on right end if you have a separate accs row. The real issue is having suitable basses. Needs at least 12 buttons in my experience

“We” are also moving on. At the last Anglesea weekend I went to we played in every major key except Ab
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george garside

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2020, 11:55:23 AM »

[

at what point does a 'melodeon' become a button accordion.

It never will, as one is push/pull and the other isn't. Why can't we adopt the continental term 'diatonic accordion' to replace the English term 'melodeon'?

on a  pedantical note some 'melodeons ' are purely diatonic each row contains or the notes of a particular musical scale.
 Others are both diatonic and chromatic 'having the 'diatonic' rows  tuned  a semitone apart eg BC,CC# etc.  These can be played in 12 keys although some are quite difficult.

Then we have the 3 row BCC# boxes  which have 3 'diatonic' rows a semitone apart  making them easily to play in 12 keys and therefore chromatic in a practical sense.  They are rightly refered to as 'button accordions'  as like the continental 3 4 or 5 row boxes they have buttons instead of piano keys./The term 'diatonic' has absolutely no relation to the push /pull  2 notes per button system  and simply means each row contains all the notes required for one diatonic scale. Therefore both the british chromatic (BCC#) and the continental chromatic are both genuine chromatic accordions  but the BCC# is also diatonic

I think the term 'melodeon' originated as a term for the one row diatonic box  and not particularly to its pushpulliness  and in theory , but pointlessly, you could have a diatonic piano accordion i.e. with only white keys so that it could only play the scale of C.

But at the end of the day what a particular box is called is of little importance and the term' 'melodeon has become  at least in the uk the normal term for a 1,2 or 3 row 4th apart push pull/box
george ( in pedantic mode due to lockdown!!)























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Lester

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2020, 12:15:19 PM »

I think you will find this is a melodeon

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2020, 12:56:50 PM »

Thank you Lester!
Yep our friends across the Pond call another instrument a melodeon.... and before we get into how to spell accordion, 'box' comes out as a pretty good all round name!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Julian S

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2020, 01:13:30 PM »

I vividly remember at least one workshop led by Mr Cutting where he set out his views on the difference between 'melodeon' and 'diatonic button accordion'. I tend to describe my instruments as squeeze boxes...(maybe one of my problems is too much squeeze and not enough subtlety  ::))
He also commented strongly about sessions and what can so easily go wrong...but that has been discussed many times.

J

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2020, 01:35:49 PM »

...and even if diatonic button accordion is 'continental' I have no problem with that.  After all, they should know as it was invented on the continent!

Back on topic:
I hadn't realised Gm was a favoured fiddle key.
Perhaps those with BbEb boxes might have found a place in 'normal' rather than 'flat sessions' if the fiddles get out of the G,D& A tunes.


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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2020, 01:41:07 PM »

...and even if diatonic button accordion is 'continental' I have no problem with that.  After all, they should know as it was invented on the continent!

Back on topic:
I hadn't realised Gm was a favoured fiddle key.
Perhaps those with BbEb boxes might have found a place in 'normal' rather than 'flat sessions' if the fiddles get out of the G,D& A tunes.
G minor is also quite common in Playford tunes.
There's something about the sound of it. It's nicely balanced aurally, not too high, not too low.

(Yes, I know someone will probably chime in with a comment about pitch standard changes over the years/centuries, but it's odd how the 'colour' of different keys still works despite the changes)
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2020, 01:54:27 PM »

Thanks Steve.
My overall knowledge of keys, prevalence of various keys in tunes and ability of keys to be played on certain instruments is poor.
I'm learning a lot in this thread.
It makes sense to be in line with the range encompassed by fiddles as most English dance music was, I presume, played on fiddles.
I do dig out my BbEb and enjoy it's sound. I realise playing 'Origin of the World' in Bm on my DG transposes to Gm on the BbEb, and it sits there really well. Quite lovely in fact.
No surprise as it's the key in which Dave Shepard wrote it in!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Winston Smith

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2020, 02:02:26 PM »

" 'box' comes out as a pretty good all round name!"

Indeed!
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Howard Jones

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2020, 02:04:09 PM »

I don't think it is the "Leveret effect".  Many of the tunes they play have been known and played for years.  Playford has been in print again since at least the 1950s, and "John of the Greeny Cheshire Way" was published I think in the 1980s.  Many of these tunes (although not all) can be played on melodeon and have been part of melodeonists' repertoires for many years. The move to more sophisticated boxes began long before Leveret formed.

I think what we have seen is a greater awareness of other styles of melodeon playing.  When I first picked one up the focus was very much on morris and English dance music (it was the start of the English revival).  I don't think either the melodeon or concertina were as prominent in Irish music as they are today (I'm afraid I know nothing of Scottish music).  Now we are much more aware of European styles, especially French music and Balfolk.   A lot of us dabble in these styles, and some specialise in them.  Andy Cutting's style probably owes as much to Euro influences as it does to English players, although he applies it beautifully to English music.

I don't think this represents a point of change.  Those who want to explore these forms will acquire suitable instruments in the appropriate keys.  Those who wish to focus on the English tradition will stick with the simpler instrument, mainly in D/G, which (possibly with some helper buttons) is entirely sufficient for this, while the Celtic players have their own preferences.  Let's not forget that often these are the same people.   It is a broadening out rather than a change of direction, in my opinion.

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #91 on: June 29, 2020, 02:12:49 PM »

I vividly remember at least one workshop led by Mr Cutting where he set out his views on the difference between 'melodeon' and 'diatonic button accordion'.
J

Erm...I think that may have been the one where I demonstrated my ignorance by asking the question directly. I believe you were there (the Leveret weekend a couple of years ago).
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Greg Smith
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2020, 02:29:43 PM »

Why can't we adopt the continental term 'diatonic accordion' to replace the English term 'melodeon'?

You (collective you) could. You (collective you) has chosen not to. In Ireland there's a convention around the word melodeon (one rows only. In the US, I don't think it's used at all ... unless you want people to say, "What? It's a what?" It's all concertinas and accordions here.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2020, 03:01:17 PM »

I've just found a 'John of the Greeny' from my early concertina days, a little A5 sized green book that had got stuffed down the back of a book case. It was well beyond my reading capacity then when bought, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.
I'd forgotten about it entirely, and bought a newer version, now A4 sized, a few years back. I seem to be more up for it now as both my sight reading has improved ( though still needs to improve !) and also my ability. It occurs to me that others' ability has grown in a similar fashion.
Yes, I think broadening out might well be the better way of describing what we're seeing, rather than a change of direction.
Thank you Howard!

….and to Gary and Greg: They'm boxes  ;D
Sorry, I can't get excited about what they are, I just want to improve my ability to play the damn things  :|||:
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

baz parkes

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2020, 03:12:54 PM »

On the subject of nomenclature I seem to remember one of the Suffolk Old Boys referring to a "F...in' ol' m'ccordeon…"

Perhaps not... :|bl :|glug
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2020, 03:21:31 PM »

…..but he had a point.
we've all been there  ;D
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

richard.fleming

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2020, 03:43:40 PM »

  I don't think either the melodeon or concertina were as prominent in Irish music as they are today (I'm afraid I know nothing of Scottish music). 

It was probably (though you don't give dates, so I'm guessing) the point at which the button accordion, if that is what you mean, was getting to dominate ITM in a way that I'm glad (as an ITM button accordion player myself) that it no  longer does. If you mean what the Irish call the melodeon, the one-row box, it has only recently come into fashion since people like Johnny Connolly and Brendan Begley played it back into fashion.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2020, 04:37:31 PM »

I suspect that in ITM as in English, the popularity of the 1and 2 row boxes overtook the concertina as a concertina was always a significantly more expensive option.
They therefore became the popular choice for the ordinary working person.
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Stiamh

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #98 on: June 29, 2020, 04:40:02 PM »

On the subject of nomenclature I seem to remember one of the Suffolk Old Boys referring to a "F...in' ol' m'ccordeon…"

A common theme? One of the "old boys" of Irish music, Tony MacMahon, is reputed to have referred to his instrument as the "f...ing two-row button accordion" (his chosen instrument) and to have declared that "there isn't a bog hole in Ireland deep enough" to contain them all.

We are a (justifiably) self-deprecating bunch (well, some of us anyway).  :|glug

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Are we at a point of change?
« Reply #99 on: June 29, 2020, 05:04:01 PM »

'Twas ever thus..... I think we are all agreed across the generations, they all at times get us swearing at our beloved instruments   >:E
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
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