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Author Topic: Change in music at the end of the C18?  (Read 10228 times)

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Corinto

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2020, 04:13:09 PM »

In Flanders there are a couple of very good books about folk dance music by Hubert Boone:
- Traditionele Vlaamse Volksliederen en Dansen (2003, 352 pp.)
- Dansmelodieën uit de Vlaamse Volksmuziektraditie (2010, 676 pp.)
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CAB

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2020, 05:57:19 PM »


For anyone interested in further information about quadrille bands and their influence on folk dance music, I have recently written an article about the quadrille bands of the Yorkshire Dales and two further articles tracing the history of the Reeth Quadrille Band and the Leyburn Quadrille Band. These articles are now in the hands of my webmaster and will appear shortly on my website: www.dalestunes.org.uk.

Fascinating stuff, Bob.  I look forward to the articles when they appear. 

I run a village band (a band playing village band music, not one based in a particular village) and even today the dynamic is always interesting - the lack of comprehension between those who play largely by ear (including the fiddler with the best bowing technique) and the educated sight-readers who stick strictly to the score; the flutists who tongue every note and those who rely on throating and finger articulation.  It's very much the place where cultivated art music and folk music come together.
 
The Rev. Baring Gould had a couple of collecting accomplices who had more fundamental problems collecting. One - sorry, name gone - invented a unique one wheeled carriage to enable them to traverse the uneven terrain of Dartmoor in search of tunes and songs!
Lovely.  I'm reminded of the village player who hired a boy to wheel a barrow containing his bass viol while he marched alongside bowing it!

And I also wonder whether the collections of 'favourite dance tunes for whenever' were big sellers - and whether these tunes were mainly played in the society ballrooms , or were popular in the pub (or gin shop !) as well.
Those which appeared annually for years must have sold pretty well.  Johnson's Choice Collection of Favourite Country Dance Tunes went through eight volumes.  But yes, who was buying them?

Steve Roud's book deals with song, of course, but is helpful on where/when/by whom songs were being performed.  I don't know how much of a link there is to dance music but he is worth reading on the social history.  Rollo Woods has something to say about village bands from a West Gallery perspective in "Good Singing Still".  Vic Gammon's doctoral thesis, with which I'm sure some of you are familiar, focuses on "Popular Music in Rural Society: Sussex 1815-1914".  I don't know either what else he may have produced since then.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2020, 06:05:57 PM »

Books on music development with an emphasis on folk. You probably need to cross from folk music into study of music.  Perhaps move away from Sharpe and Grainger to Karpeles etc? I have been collecting them in a very small way from the second hand market. Perhaps "Folk Music of Britain...and beyond" - Frank Howes might be of interest although on the borderline of academic and factual in will give you a 1969 overview.  He was a professor at the Royal College, a music critic at the Times and editor of the folk song journal for 20 years.  The recent books I have seen tend to be "song based".

There is loads of song based stuff, as you say. I'm not so interested in that.

C#  and Maud Karpeles seem to centre, mostly, around later music and don't seem to discuss the nature of the music, so much as where they found it.

i haven't sourced any of Vic Gammon's publications, apart from an academic paper that didn't address my interest directly.  I have emailed him to ask if he can make recommendations.
[I think this is the paper CAB mentions]

What I would like to find is more stuff like Bob Ellis's superb contribution.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 06:09:06 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2020, 06:10:10 PM »

In Flanders there are a couple of very good books about folk dance music by Hubert Boone:
- Traditionele Vlaamse Volksliederen en Dansen (2003, 352 pp.)
- Dansmelodieën uit de Vlaamse Volksmuziektraditie (2010, 676 pp.)

Have you got time to translate?  ;D
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Greg Smith
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2020, 06:39:37 PM »

He had a gypsy teacher, and many friends, eg Grappeli. But with name Yehudi was probably not one himself 🤔
Yes, sorry Chris - I guess my hurried choice of the term "origins" was inappropriate.  ;D

Can't stop to think when I'm mostly hitting the right keys!

Rob.
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Andy Next Tune

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2020, 09:12:44 PM »


Steve Roud's recent book on English Song deals with song........
.......  however there is a chapter at the end of the book written by someone else which specifically discusses the music that was collected. I seem to recall it talks about the relative proportion of modal tunes collected and why they were common/uncommon.

At the moment, the book is with a friend so I can't provide much more assistance.
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Peadar

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2020, 11:08:16 PM »

"Improving" on traditional music seems to have been something of a fashion in Gaelic Scotland as well. Much of Marjory Kennedy Fraser's  work as published in the setting of English interpretation appears to have fallen into that bear trap.


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CAB

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2020, 12:13:05 AM »


Steve Roud's recent book on English Song deals with song........
.......  however there is a chapter at the end of the book written by someone else which specifically discusses the music that was collected. I seem to recall it talks about the relative proportion of modal tunes collected and why they were common/uncommon.

Iris Bishop's chapter deals specifically with song melodies, not his collecting of dance tunes, though it does have some relevance to the present discussion.  She notes Sharp's interest in modal tunes and his conclusion that these had survived because the singers were interested in melody, not harmony, which is what had hastened the disappearance of the modes in other contexts.  She finds close similarities between Harry Cox's 1960's tune for a song and a published 18th century melody for the same song.  She also suggests that Playford's "approach (to publishing dance music ) was marked by a shift towards a broader audience including those involved in home and tavern music-making."  Many of his tunes, she writes, were those of ballads, some dating from the Elizabethan era and many surviving in basic form to be collected from country singers by members of the Folk Song Society 250 years after Playford's first edition.

So it seems that the singers, whose conscious focus was on text rather than tune (another of Sharp's observations), preserved modal tunes after their virtual disappearance from the instrumental tradition, especially where this involved ensemble playing.
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Hugh Taylor

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2020, 10:52:35 AM »

Thanks to all contributors to date, esp Julian and Bob who seemed to have focused on my original query.
I know that the late C19 and early C20 collectors may have reinterpreted what they heard, but I'm not interested in them. What I was referring to was the increasing knowledge that we are building from fiddlers/flute tune book, eg Village Music Project and comparing them to C17 and C18 publications such as Playford, Walsh, etc.
Julian is absolutely correct in that there is research needing to be undertaken, though I'm sure some already has, but where is it?
Chris? Vic? EFDSS?
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2020, 11:42:37 AM »

To me, this would be an excellent subject to research if someone happened to study on the postgrad world music course led by Fay Hield (amongst others) at Sheffield. (But maybe that focusses less on the historical aspects ?)
I wonder if there is anything in back editions of the EFDSS Folk music journal ? Saying that I've just found a reference in an article in the last journal, to an unpublished master thesis by Celia Pendlebury (University of Sheffield 2015 !) 'Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes : A history of 'traditional' dance tunes of Britain and Ireland. Sounds interesting !
The article itself is about John Malchair, 1730- 1812, who categorised and collected tunes - but seemingly focussed more on Welsh, Irish and Scottish tunes.

J



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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2020, 12:08:59 PM »

I've lost touch with EFDSS years ago after the C# House debacle caused me to end my membership. I have no idea of their current activities.
I'd have hoped with Sheffield and Newcastle Uni's involvement in folk music that this type of question poses a serious research opportunity if it hasn't already been touched on by them.
Q
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CAB

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2020, 12:23:45 PM »

Footnote:  For anyone who hasn't seen it, I've temporarily put a copy of Vic Gammon's paper here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ti5u9a6c9a5wdk7/AACDYCagpLgZcaVx0A3GfFNfa?dl=0

Chapter 3 is the most obviously relevant and sections of part 3.  Of, course the discussion of modes is under the section on song.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2020, 12:47:53 PM »

... I've just found a reference in an article in the last journal, to an unpublished master thesis by Celia Pendlebury (University of Sheffield 2015 !) 'Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes : A history of 'traditional' dance tunes of Britain and Ireland. Sounds interesting !

Celia Pendlebury is my co-musician colleague with Lizzie Dripping. I will ask her if it is possible for her to make her master's thesis available.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2020, 01:35:19 PM »

I've just found a reference in an article in the last journal, to an unpublished master thesis by Celia Pendlebury (University of Sheffield 2015 !) 'Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes : A history of 'traditional' dance tunes of Britain and Ireland. ...


I found it freely avaiable here (you need to register)

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/8262/
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Greg Smith
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CAB

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2020, 02:28:21 PM »

Thanks Greg!  Downloaded without registering.  Maybe it remembered me from a previous visit?
Abstract sounds eminently sensible.  WIll look forward to reading the rest.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2020, 02:54:10 PM »

I've just found a reference in an article in the last journal, to an unpublished master thesis by Celia Pendlebury (University of Sheffield 2015 !) 'Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes : A history of 'traditional' dance tunes of Britain and Ireland. ...


I found it freely avaiable here (you need to register)

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/8262/

Celia has just given me the same link!
No need to register, but in case of difficulties, here's a direct link to the PDF download (15 MB)...
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/8262/1/Dissertation-Pendlebury-030315.pdf

If you want to put a face to the name, there are photos of Celia here:
http://www.lizziedripping.org.uk/musicians.html
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Corinto

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2020, 03:17:47 PM »

In Flanders there are a couple of very good books about folk dance music by Hubert Boone:
- Traditionele Vlaamse Volksliederen en Dansen (2003, 352 pp.)
- Dansmelodieën uit de Vlaamse Volksmuziektraditie (2010, 676 pp.)
Have you got time to translate?  ;D

Both books are about traditional flemish folk dance music, most pages are music notation as found in different towns or villages, or old tunebooks, and then also text about origin of tunes and dances.

Translation:
- Traditionele Vlaamse Volksliederen en Dansen = Traditional Flemish Folktunes and Dances.
- Dansmelodieën uit de Vlaamse Volksmuziektraditie = Dancetunes from the Flemish Folkmusical Tradition.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2020, 04:31:40 PM »

A useful introduction to the main themes discussed in this thread can be found in David Johnson's book 'Music and Society in Lowland Scotland in the Eighteenth Century' (Oxford University Press, 1972). Although the context is specifically North British, there is much that is relevant to studies south of the border.

For a more in depth study I can recommend the Christopher Marsh book 'Music and Society in Early modern England' (Cambridge University Press, 2013). Of Particular interest here is the section 'Recreational Musicians', which contains many specific references to the Henry Atkinson manuscript.
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Julian S

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2020, 05:07:46 PM »

The thesis by Celia Pendlebury makes very interesting reading - many thanks to Greg - and Steve - for the links.

Julian
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2020, 05:28:15 PM »

Thanks Greg!  Downloaded without registering.  Maybe it remembered me from a previous visit?
Abstract sounds eminently sensible.  WIll look forward to reading the rest.

:D You're right. You only need to register if you're uploading. Unlikely, so far as I'm concerned.
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Greg Smith
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