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Author Topic: Change in music at the end of the C18?  (Read 10225 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2020, 07:11:06 PM »

I can't remember ever hearing a tune set in the locrian mode. If I have I instantly forgot it  ??? ;D
There's John Kirkpatrick's song Dust to Dust sung here by Jon Boden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IONfXsgRYZY

Thanks Lester. More listenable than I expected. Sounds rather like the phrygian mode-ish.
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Peadar

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2020, 07:29:49 PM »

Gena - We can be pretty sure that what we have of Shakespeare is pretty much as he scribed it, if only because printing reached Englandshire in the mid 15th century. Shakespeare and other significant English playwrights and poets of the late 16th and early 17th got into print in their own lifetimes.

In the contemporary Bardic traditions of Gaelic Ireland and Scotland scribing was not unkown but printing was not available.

If it is written down it is on the historical record....the challenge and question arises when one starts collecting something from an aural tradition and casting it into a written form which carries it's own baggage.

An interesting comment appears in Margaret Fay Shaw's Folksongs and Folklore of South Uist ..."A comment some people make on first hearing Gaelic songs, is that all the tunes sound alike. This is because such people cannot accustom their ears to any other than the major and minor scales. That is why some collectors in the past ave changed notes to sound more 'agreeable', or brought the final note of a tune to where they felt it should be. To this day (1955) accompaniements are being written with notes which are not in the scale of the tune. We must forget the scales to which we are accustomed, and listen anew."

She goes on to say that there are many opinions on the subject of modes in folk music and refers to the modes of the songs in her book being named according to Mr. AH Fox Strangways' system. She gives a key to this system...which I don't really understand but if anyone requests it I'll put up a pdf.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2020, 08:28:41 PM »



She goes on to say that there are many opinions on the subject of modes in folk music and refers to the modes of the songs in her book being named according to Mr. AH Fox Strangways' system. She gives a key to this system...which I don't really understand but if anyone requests it I'll put up a pdf.

Yes please    ;D                   
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2020, 08:58:42 PM »

I can't remember ever hearing a tune set in the locrian mode. If I have I instantly forgot it  ??? ;D
There's John Kirkpatrick's song Dust to Dust sung here by Jon Boden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IONfXsgRYZY

A quick search through my digital tune collection reveals that Yannick's Mazurka and La Prapoutische are both in Bm Locrian and each of the following tunes has either the A-music or the B-music in the Locrian mode: Cammeronians Ranto; Sunshine; Jupes Fendues; Bourrée de Concours; Misirlou; Jan Mijne Man; Les Patins Blancs; Asclepius; Hanter Dro No.23; and La Tripolitaine. This suggests that while Locrian tunes are quite rare and that, while they are less rare on the continent, they are not entirely unknown in Britain.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2020, 09:29:52 PM »

Can you supply/link to any of those scores? When looking up tunes with those names on abcnotation / thesession / folktunefinder, none of the ones I can find are in any kind of locrian.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2020, 09:34:05 PM »

A quick search through my digital tune collection reveals that Yannick's Mazurka and La Prapoutische are both in Bm Locrian and each of the following tunes has either the A-music or the B-music in the Locrian mode: Cammeronians Ranto; Sunshine; Jupes Fendues; Bourrée de Concours; Misirlou; Jan Mijne Man; Les Patins Blancs; Asclepius; Hanter Dro No.23; and La Tripolitaine. This suggests that while Locrian tunes are quite rare and that, while they are less rare on the continent, they are not entirely unknown in Britain.[/color]

I am not familiar with most of those tunes but, Jan Mijne Mann is one I play. The setting I know doesn't seem  locrian, as far as I can see. More like aeolian.
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Greg Smith
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Peadar

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2020, 09:35:04 PM »



She goes on to say that there are many opinions on the subject of modes in folk music and refers to the modes of the songs in her book being named according to Mr. AH Fox Strangways' system. She gives a key to this system...which I don't really understand but if anyone when Greg requests it I'll put up a pdf.

Yes please    ;D                 
Sin agad e :D - not a great pdf but  I only have the "perfect bound" 1999 reprint and I don't want to break it's spine. ::)

Missing...last word on page 76 "without" and below the "key" to Strangway's system on page 77 "It is difficult to assign...."
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 09:47:36 PM by Peadar »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2020, 10:11:27 PM »



She goes on to say that there are many opinions on the subject of modes in folk music and refers to the modes of the songs in her book being named according to Mr. AH Fox Strangways' system. She gives a key to this system...which I don't really understand but if anyone when Greg requests it I'll put up a pdf.

Yes please    ;D                 
Sin agad e :D - not a great pdf but  I only have the "perfect bound" 1999 reprint and I don't want to break it's spine. ::)

Missing...last word on page 76 "without" and below the "key" to Strangway's system on page 77 "It is difficult to assign...."

Thanks Peader. That is not the  clearest way I have ever seen of understanding modes. Possibly the muddiest puddle on the street.
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Greg Smith
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Peadar

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2020, 11:38:34 PM »


Thanks Peader. That is not the  clearest way I have ever seen of understanding modes. Possibly the muddiest puddle on the street.

The reference to variable notes seems to tie in with a much earlier post in the thread..... She (Margaret Fay Shaw) also seems to be saying that she is referring to pentatonic modes - Reading the key a few times I start to see that the numbers allocated to fundementals eg C 4/7 correspond to the "variable" notes F and B. In key of D F and B are respectively 3rd and 5th notes ... hence D 3/5 etc.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2020, 01:56:01 AM »

Ref the book scan from Peadar, I love the idea of trying to explain modes using both a parallel scales and a relative scales approach all at the same time, while also telling us to also forget everything we know about scales in the paragraph just before. A muddy puddle, indeed.

I've watched/read quite a bit about teaching people about the modes of the major scale and what I generally see is that there's a lot of different ways of explaining how they can work and it's usually about finding the 'right' one for how someone thinks about/experiences music/their instrument. Perhaps the one in the book is just right for someone. Then again, the explanations/ways of thinking about them back a couple hundred years was probably pretty different as well.

One thing that I would describe as perhaps a misconception that I think people tend to have is the idea that modal tunes implicitly can not 'resolve' in some way, or have a fundamental feeling of awkwardness that our 'modern' ears (or those of previous generations) struggle to tolerate. Awkwardness certainly exists, but, I think it's entirely independent and can exist in any tune, Ionian or no.
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Roger Hare

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2020, 06:40:32 AM »

This is probably an off-topic 'side thread', so I'll be as brief as possible...
Can you supply/link to any of those scores? When looking up tunes with those names on abcnotation / thesession / folktunefinder, none of the ones I can find are in any kind of locrian.
I can't link to any of those, but I did find this which may be Locrian:
Code: [Select]
X:136
%From Sylvain Pirons web site - www.tradfrance.com.
T:POLKA PIQUEE DE PLOEUC
Z:Yves Belotteau
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=120
K:C
% Last note suggests Locrian mode tune
| c2 g2 g2 fe f2 g2 a3 z | G2 a2 g2 fe d2 g2 e2 c2 | c2 g2 g2 fe f2 g2 a3 z | G2 a2 g2 fe d2 g2 c3 z |
g3 z e2 fe d2 d2 e2 c2 | G3 z e2 fe d2 d2 B3 z | G3 z e2 fe d2 d2 e2 c2 | G3 z e2 fe d2 d2 B3 |
The ...Last note... comment is from the original transcriber, or some subsequent 'editor', not from myself.

Is it Locrian, then? Why? Why not? After 6 years, I still can't really get my head around how to decide the mode of a tune...

There's also James Fitton's 'Rainbow Jigs', the last part of which ('Purple Jig') is F#Locrian. See:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,18359.msg232135.html#msg232135
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:11:16 AM by Roger Hare »
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Anahata

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2020, 07:55:23 AM »

I can't remember ever hearing a tune set in the locrian mode. If I have I instantly forgot it  ??? ;D
There's John Kirkpatrick's song Dust to Dust sung here by Jon Boden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IONfXsgRYZY

Thanks Lester. More listenable than I expected. Sounds rather like the phrygian mode-ish.
I've heard JK point out that he doesn't use the 6th note of the scale in it, as that would pull the key centre too strongly in other directions.
So it could be Phrygian.

Edit: PS - that's rubbish, it couldn't possibly be Phrygian. Sorry for posting while not properly awake.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:01:29 AM by Anahata »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2020, 08:52:21 AM »

I've heard JK point out that he doesn't use the 6th note of the scale in it, as that would pull the key centre too strongly in other directions.
So it could be Phrygian.

Are you sure that was the 6th note of the scale and not the 5th? It's the flattened 5th that makes the scale so weird.
My ears are not clever enough to be certain, but I don't think I can hear a flattened 5th in JB's song.

The 6th note in the phrygian is the same as the 6th in the locrian. [Edit: Actually, on reflection,  I think this statement is probably wrong]

Maybe Hugh should have his thread back now   (:)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 01:19:48 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2020, 08:58:13 AM »

Not wishing to hi-jack this thread further, but Celia Pendlebury has informed me of a forthcoming conference which may well cover some of the subject matter discussed here. Could be very interesting...

I've started a new topic about it here:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,25769.msg306700.html#new
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2020, 10:59:36 AM »

I've heard JK point out that he doesn't use the 6th note of the scale in it, as that would pull the key centre too strongly in other directions.
So it could be Phrygian.

Are you sure that was the 6th note of the scale and not the 5th? It's the flattened 5th that makes the scale so weird.
My ears are not clever enough to be certain, but I don't think I can hear a flattened 5th in JB's song.

You're right, it was far too early in the morning.
His tune, sung in B locrian, doesn't have a G, which is the 6th of the scale. That part is correct.
But it definitely could not be Phrygian - pretend I never said that.  :|bl
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2020, 11:51:44 AM »

Gapped scales can be ambiguous - the first half of the slip jig The Cock and The Hen is sometimes referred to as F#minor and could be interpreted as aeolian (I think  :o) but the absence of the second step (G or G#) means it could be heard as Phrygian.  The second half goes into A major, though still without that G/G#.  I once played it at a session (nobody joined in  :-\ ) and someone murmured "phrygian" when I'd finished. 
Happy to be corrected - my head is starting to hurt.  (of course the abc key sig below is just there to define the number of sharps)

T: The Cock And The Hen
R: slip jig
M: 9/8
L: 1/8
K: Bmin
~F3 FEF c2 A | ~F3 FEF AFE | ~F3 FEF c2 d | ecA BAF AFE :|
ecA ABc d2 f | ecA ABc BAF | ecA ABc d2 B | cBA BAF AFE :|
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2020, 12:47:54 PM »

I would also be in favour of perhaps an additional thread; somewhere where we can all be wrong about modes, together. Things are often subjective enough that you can talk about them until your ears fall off.

Is it Locrian, then?
No, this is not Locrian, and, to be real with you, basically nothing is Locrian.

There's also James Fitton's 'Rainbow Jigs', the last part of which ('Purple Jig') is F#Locrian. See:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,18359.msg232135.html#msg232135
Thank you for this link, I don't recall ever having seen this. I've done the same thing as the composer here, writing 1 tune per mode, and am about ready to record it properly.
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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2020, 03:36:05 PM »

(1) I would also be in favour of perhaps an additional thread; somewhere where we can all be wrong about modes,
together
. Things are often subjective enough that you can talk about them until your ears fall off.

(2) No, this is not Locrian, and, to be real with you, basically nothing is Locrian.

(3) Thank you for this link, I don't recall ever having seen this. I've done the same thing as the composer here,
writing 1 tune per mode, and am about ready to record it properly.

(1) Yes please - me too. I was a little wary about going so far off-topic (a favourite hobby of mine) - clang...👂👂👂
There are 'child boards' for ABC and for Stolen Instruments, so one for Modes might be feasible?

(2) Yes, I was a bit hesitant about posing the question. The non-existence of locrian is a 'factoid' of which I've been
aware since 1968 - literally decades before I ever put my grubby hands on a musical instrument in cold blood.

"...if The Si-mode, which churchmen call locrian, occurs in our folk song, it has hardly been noticed..."
(Lloyd, A.L., Folk Song in England, p.40, Faber & Faber, London, 2008, 978-0-571-24547-5. First published 1967(8?).

(3) My pleasure! There is a slightly more 'detailed' ABC transcription by Paul Hardy floating around - somewhere
on his web site, I guess...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 03:59:20 PM by Roger Hare »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2020, 10:35:01 PM »

Gapped scales can be ambiguous - the first half of the slip jig The Cock and The Hen is sometimes referred to as F#minor and could be interpreted as aeolian (I think  :o) but the absence of the second step (G or G#) means it could be heard as Phrygian.  The second half goes into A major, though still without that G/G#.  I once played it at a session (nobody joined in  :-\ ) and someone murmured "phrygian" when I'd finished. 


A major something. Doesn't really matter what because it doesn't call for an E chord. One worth moving to Gena's mode thread.
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Greg Smith
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Peadar

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Re: Change in music at the end of the C18?
« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2020, 11:11:30 PM »

I understand that this thread is really about the question of whether and how English folk music might have quite abruptly changed at the end of the 18th century. There is lot of evidence for the music of Gaidhlig society being hijacked/converted into something that served London centric (or more accurately) Royal court centric patronage at the end of the 18th century. This cultural appropriation was contemporary with the Highland Clearances -but does not imply that the music of the community was fundementally changed within the community- indeed the evidence is that it wasn't
Drawing attention to Gaidhlig music as I have done can only cast a sidelight on what may or may  not have happened to English music under roughly the same time frame. English folk music may well  have been at a comparative disadvantage- because it had no seperate linguistic reservoir.

I don't think I have anything more to add to this very interesting question and so will retire gracefully from the thread.

Peadar
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:21:09 PM by Peadar »
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