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[Gandy]

Hi,

I think most people recognise the characteristic Scottish accordion sound, but I wondered whether anyone knew what technically underlies it.  Is it just the amount of tremolo, or the arrangement of voices, or is it something more radical in the innards?

[graememackay]

Gandy, this is my version of the story, but there might be more qualified people to comment on it.

musette tuning is generally used with 3 sets of reeds, all tuned slightly different.  Every note played on the musette tone has a reed in perfect pitch, one tuned slightly sharper and the other tuned slightly flatter, the result is a tremolo which can be adjusted depending on how wet or dry you want it by tuning the reeds eitherside of the perfect tone in the middle.

[Gandy]

Cheers.  So do think the difference from say a French sounding is just the amount of tremolo?

[EeeJay]

As far as I see it, all part and parcel of the history of adequate dancehall projection prior to amplification. Industrial strength musette tuning - sure, the Scots do use it, but so do/did a lot of other traditions... e.g. the fashion for drier tuning in Ireland is relatively new...

Like how the "Bal Musette" evolved in Paris in the early 20th century... where the Auvergnat bagpipe, the Cabrette, (which has a loud bleaty tone... like a goat with toothache ) came together with the Italian immigrant's squeezebox...  and Banjos... and Saxophones... and other instruments capable of accoustic clout...

Here's a little something of how it would have sounded back in around 1920...

See what I mean about projection?  Gawd, what a glorious racket!

It's the same way how those ballsy little multivoice Baldoni boxes came into being amongst the Irish American crowd... something built/evolved for out and out accoustic clout.

As for the actual amount of -/+, the differences between French or Scottish is very hard to define... earlier recordings of French stuff tends to be very much wider set... and 30 odd years later the Scots players seem to use (or hark back to) this... the box on Will Starr's "Musette Memories" has a very retro tone to it...

Ed J

[Brian G]

I have also thought about this.  When I bought my 3 row Paolo, the salesman told me that the box was in Irish mussette, which I still don't quite understand.  I would like to hear the same tune played on a box in Scottish musette and then on a box in Irish musette.  Maybe that would help.

Brian

[triskel]

This is what Victoria Accordions of Castelfidardo were quoting for musette tunings in 1997:

French  -+ 20
Scottish  -+ 23.5
Irish     -+ 26

[Keithypete.]

This is what Victoria Accordions of Castelfidardo were quoting for musette tunings in 1997:

French  -+ 20
Scottish  -+ 23.5
Irish     -+ 26

Interesting! Would the 2.5 difference be really all that discernable to the naked ear? I have a collapsed ear-drum and hence a rubbish stereo.
 I doubt I could tell. How is the Castagnari Roma tuned? It is musette - isn't it?

[Gandy]

Clinkscales in Aberdeen used to list some models as being specially ordered from Italy with their own specification of musette tuning, which certainly suppose implies a difference from the tuning they'd supply to other markets.   

[Theo]

You can also have a MMM tuning where the + and - differences are different.  eg -12, 0 +20 or any variation on that theme,  you also have to take account of how the tuning varies across the note range, same cents difference, same beat rate, or something in between.

[Bill Young]

I would say there's no exact Scottish musette tuning. For sure, it's three M reeds (M-, M, M+), and "quite wide". Probably Triskel's figure (earlier post in this thread) of +/- 23.5% is pretty close.

On the Roland FR3, there are various "detune" settings that can be applied. These range from 0 = none, 1 = dry, to 14 = French, 15 = Scottish. (There is no Irish setting). These are numbers, not values, and all they show is that Scottish has more offset than French, according to Roland. I'll try to take some measurements to see what they've chosen for the "Scottish" offset.

I know I can go to an Accordion and Fiddle club and hear 20 or so accordions, all with "Scottish Musette", and most a bit different, ranging (subjectively) from "not enough" through "pleasant" (most of them) to "Jeez, that's a bit much" (the latter being a particular Fantini PA that I hear; but it didn't necessarily come from the factory like that).

On MMM settings, my Paolo Soprani, my Hohner Trichord III and the Roland (on German Folk accordion (Hohner Morino) setting, and Scottish offset), all give an "acceptable" Scottish musette sound. I should record them all and see how they differ.

[graememackay]

That Rolands for sale isn't it Bill?  Someone should really buy it.  Go on someone, you know you want it.

[triskel]

I would say there's no exact Scottish musette tuning. For sure, it's three M reeds (M-, M, M+), and "quite wide". Probably Triskel's figure (earlier post in this thread) of +/- 23.5% is pretty close.

Well it's not "my" figure, but what one Italian factory (Victoria, in Castelfidardo) was offering as "Scottish musette" at that time.

I guess it might help if I quoted the full list, for comparison:

Tuning#            Name                  Cents Apart
1                     Dry                           0
2                     Giusto                     - + 5
3                     American                 - + 10
4                     Celeste                   - + 12
5                     Japan                  - 11, + 13
6                     German                   - + 14
7                     Italian                     - + 16
8                     French                    - + 20
9                     Scottish                  - + 23.5
10                    Irish                       - + 26
               

[triskel]

You can also have a MMM tuning where the + and - differences are different.  eg -12, 0 +20 or any variation on that theme ...

There were also American tunings where both tremolo reeds were tuned sharp, but by different amounts, such as +15/+23 (like on my 6-voice Baldoni).

[Bill Young]

Well, that's been an interesting experiment. I've measured the musette offsets of three different accordions. I used Dirk's Accordion tuner software (trial version), so there are several caveats - my inexperience in using it, the recording setup (cheap mic into laptop), and the accuracy and discrimination of this software when dealing with three reeds simultaneously. The on-screen measurements jumped about somewhat, though always reasonably similar for each instrument, so I took several readings for each instrument and averaged them. I just took the measurements for one note (nominally A = 440Hz); hats off to tuners who do this sort of thing for the full range of notes on an accordion.

The results (in cents):

Roland - setting 15 (max) (Scottish)  -26.8  0   +26.2
Roland - setting 14          (French)    -23    0   +23

Hohner Trichord III                          -21    0   +23

Paolo Soprani                                 -28    0   +24

So there we are. I don't know what to make of it. All different, but all acceptable as Scottish musette. I'm quite happy with any of them.

[HallelujahAl]

That Trichord of yours Bill has a wondeful musette sound Bill!

Forgive my ignorance in this matter, but on a two voiced instrument would one tune one reed straight and the other sharp or would you tune one reed sharp and the other flat? If so by what sort of margin to get that traditional kind of Hohner tremolo? I'm sure this has been dealt with before on the forum so please forgive the repetition of question. But I'm about to start tuning a recently aquired old Hohner Double Ray Black Dot B/C.
Thanks
AL

[Bill Young]

Forgive my ignorance in this matter, but on a two voiced instrument would one tune one reed straight and the other sharp or would you tune one reed sharp and the other flat?

I believe either is possible but that one reed straight and one sharp is more usual. It's been answered before, but it can be difficult to find back stuff. Our forum is too successful for our own good! It would be good if an experienced tuner could put up an article on the whole subject in "Melodeon Information" on the main website, or a link to an existing article.

That Trichord of yours Bill has a wondeful musette sound Bill!

Might have to make way soon for another box. Watch this space!

[HallelujahAl]

Might have to make way soon for another box. Watch this space!

Ah well I think I might know which one you're talking about - best of luck Bill.
 

[an bosca ceoil]

If you really  want  traditional "factory" tuning, have one set at "more or less"  concert and one about +25 throughout (so that the top end sounds like a canary on speed)

[Gandy]

Forgive my ignorance in this matter, but on a two voiced instrument would one tune one reed straight and the other sharp or would you tune one reed sharp and the other flat?

Found this thread with some interesting info  ....

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,1202.30.html

[Bill Young]

This is probably about as definitive as you could get for Scottish musette tuning. On having a look inside my newly-acquired Hohner Shand Morino, there is a note "Cents #26 b23 mid A", dated and initialled J.C. That's John Crawford, the doyen of Scottish accordion tuners. If anyone knows what Scottish musette tuning is, he's the man.

So there you have it.

Edited: for some reason, the post didn't reproduce the "sharp" and "flat" signs that I carefully copied from Character Map. It looked OK on the preview. So back to # and b respectively