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Author Topic: A Mode Abode  (Read 15306 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2020, 07:48:46 PM »

I find it interesting that, in the development of modern musical systems, the Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian and Mixolydian modes were defined by Guido of Arezzo (the inventor of staff notation and the ut–re–mi–fa–sol–la system which, later, developed into solfage)  about 1025. The other modes: Ionian, Aelolian and Locryian weren't identified until the Renaissance (by a chap called Heinrich Glarean). The Greeks got there before them though.

It's amazing how much you can learn by subscribing to Academia and downloading papers on music. Trouble is, life is too short-there are over 25 million papers, on all sorts of subjects.

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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Chris Brimley

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #161 on: July 24, 2020, 09:54:17 AM »

What would be really interesting to know is whether a musician whose culture has been purely Freygich-based would easily be able to play in a TTSTTTS major scale.  I suspect not, though finding anyone who hasn't come across Western pop culture might be quite difficult. 

There has been discussion here about the supposed scientific nature of a major scale, but actually I'm not sure that's particularly valid - the convention of making each semitone interval equal logarithmically is an imposed approximation which allows harmonies nearly to fit, and has another benefit.  Westerners have had this scale pummeled into them from a very early age, but actually what we mainly like as harmony is combinations of notes that don't 'beat' together, which isn't quite the same thing.  Certain harmonies, such as minor thirds, major thirds, fourths, fifths and sixths have frequencies that nearly achieve that (and the octave does, exactly) with the logarithmic scale.  I'm guessing here, but when we developed semitone intervals several millennia ago, all we probably did was to fill in the gaps as best we could with our instruments (it's easily visible on a stringed instrument), and then when arithmetic came along we were able to work out the logarithmic scale that came close enough to allow instruments to play in different keys (because the logarithmic scale is the only one that exactly allows that).  And then music was able to take off, in lots of separate cultures, with separate scales, and in different keys.

Talking about harmonies and beats, there is an interesting counter-analogy in the design of aircraft here, which many years ago I was involved in.  When engineers design wings, they have to make sure that they don't 'flutter' like a leaf.  The obvious case would be if the natural frequency of the wing flapping up and down matched the natural frequency of the wing twisting, or a multiple of it.  If that happens, the wing flutters uncontrollably, and falls off.  Therefore programs were devised that searched for these 'harmonising' frequencies, and contrary to music, the designer could make sure they never happened.  Modern airliners I believe have turned-up wing tips because this reduces the tendency of a thin wing to twist at a dangerous frequency. 
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CAB

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #162 on: July 24, 2020, 12:00:45 PM »

What would be really interesting to know is whether a musician whose culture has been purely Freygich-based would easily be able to play in a TTSTTTS major scale.  I suspect not, though finding anyone who hasn't come across Western pop culture might be quite difficult. 

That would be a good test and I think you're right though yes, commercial pop culture means you'd be hard put to find a corner of the globe unexposed to western scales. 
People don't always react well to scales they're unfamiliar with.  Once in my teens I was humming a song to myself, something pentachordal, Byker Hill I expect, when I was asked why I had to keep "singing that Japanese stuff"!!  Of course it could have been my humming?
Mind you, I'm convinced the growth in popularity of Irish music over the last couple of decades is partly explained by the preponderance of dorian, aeolian and mixolydian tunes in the repertoire of bands like Lúnasa, which remind audiences of rock and roll scales.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #163 on: July 24, 2020, 12:11:48 PM »

I'm guessing here, but when we developed semitone intervals several millennia ago, all we probably did was to fill in the gaps as best we could with our instruments ..

I understand that the mathematical definition of the semitone, was by Archytas (428-347 BCE), a friend of Plato. He is also credited with inventing mathematical mechanics. He seems to have been a clever chap. To complicated for me to follow without giving it a lot more time, anyway. He seems have done a lot of work on harmonic theory.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

CAB

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #164 on: July 24, 2020, 12:38:06 PM »

I'm guessing here, but when we developed semitone intervals several millennia ago, all we probably did was to fill in the gaps as best we could with our instruments ..

I understand that the mathematical definition of the semitone, was by Archytas (428-347 BCE), a friend of Plato. He is also credited with inventing mathematical mechanics. He seems to have been a clever chap. To complicated for me to follow without giving it a lot more time, anyway. He seems have done a lot of work on harmonic theory.

Impressive stuff.  Can't help noticing that Archytas is an anagram of Arty Chas.  - my other name  ;)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #165 on: July 24, 2020, 06:01:26 PM »

I'm guessing here, but when we developed semitone intervals several millennia ago, all we probably did was to fill in the gaps as best we could with our instruments ..
..Can't help noticing that Archytas is an anagram of Arty Chas.  - my other name  ;)

Now that is a genuine claim to fame. If you're ever looking for an internet ID it's ready made.

We tend to concentrate on the logarithmic nature of the musical scale, imaging that is beyond the ken of the ancients but they were a lot cannier than most of us realise. They were perfectly capable of modelling what happens using mathematical harmonics. They developed the monochord,  an instrument for demonstrating harmonic musical  theories.

I first came across him when I did an OU mathematics foundation course, a lifetime ago. He was was the man who solved the Delian Problem (don't ask). Fascinating stuff for some of us.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Chris Ryall

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Re: A Mode Abode
« Reply #166 on: July 26, 2020, 08:23:37 AM »

Glad to feel people moving to TTsTTTs way of looking at scales. I’ve always used tt/ttt/ notation, but happy to switch.

It is a fantastic simplifier in terms imagining of the diatonic modes of what is after all a diatonic instrument (the french call it a diato incidentally.  Just pick”tonic” of your choice and apply one of the 7 rotations of that pattern.🍻

The catch 22 being that on 2 rows … the pattern rotations are there! but choice of tonic perforce moves. ie G ionian, A dorian, B phrygian on a G row.

APPLYING that, my kit is C#DG based, and (don’t ask!) has a rocket fast Bb scale, mainly on outer rows, pull. I learned it playing with brass, and also sing in that key. I use it for the lovely deux frères gavotte de l”Aven. So, it’s now as easy as G or D.

OK, trying out some new songs I realised that my voice really wanted eg Sally free and easy, Caladonia in Gm, previously a bit scary?

But thinking modally … its just mode 6 of my well practiced Bb. Tried out the tunes: all there 👍. I like to sing mostly to chords - no problem the classics are simply alternating notes taken out of your modal scale. It was sorted really very quickly, and I was able to focus more on box dynamics to bring out what the songs were doing.

These examples are from 2½ or 3 row perspective, but Gina has amazed me by what she’s achieved on two! A downside is that 8 bass left end is set up for just a few of those working 2 row modes. This an echo  of the  Catch 22 mentioned above.  12 bass helps a lot in such excursions.

I’ve had a similar path into C minor. Once you get your head round modes - very, very useful
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 08:31:18 AM by Chris Ryall »
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