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Author Topic: Bellows glue: best practices?  (Read 2184 times)

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Gonk

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Bellows glue: best practices?
« on: July 17, 2020, 09:15:44 PM »

I'm peeling a large bowl of grapes one by one retaping some bellows for the first time.  The instrument is an old (30s-40s?) Hohner Bb/Eb.  After reading some comments here, I decided to remove the frames first.  I'm about two hours in, roughly a quarter of the way through the removal of the old tape.  What a task.  I keep the image of the retaped bellows shining in my mind to light the way.

But I came to ask about glues.  I've read about everything from hide glue, contact cement, light PVAs including Elmers and Aleene's Tacky Glue... I'd prefer not to use something that will make these bellows impossible to restore in the future.  I assume something like hide glue was originally used, both for the taping and to attach the bellows to the frame, but I'm curious to know whether there are modern glues that perform better.  What do you recommend?  And should I use the same glue for the taping and to reattach the frames?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 11:03:49 PM by Gonk »
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Peadar

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2020, 09:48:03 PM »

Avoid hide glue for taping bellows....because it's a hot glue you need heat as well as  damp to get  it off and by the time you get the tape lifting the bellows papers may be wet through and coming off along with the tape.
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2020, 10:02:59 PM »

I'm doing the same thing.
I've got bellows in fairly poor nick and although I'm not too bothered about appearance, it's clear I'm going to have to do a lot of work to make these airtight.
If I have to do all that, I might as well try and make them decent looking at the same time.
I'm using PVA for everything. I'm using interior quality (not water resistant) so it is sort of reversible.
In truth they won't stand another rebuild, I probably shouldn't be doing it this time, and if the cobbled together box needs bellows again, a new set will be needed.
I'll be interested to hear how you are doing with this.
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Gonk

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2020, 11:01:32 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  I'm through cleaning off the old tape, and I guess I'll attach the new tape with school glue.
 It's advertised as washable even when dry, so I think that's the quality needed.  I just hope it doesn't become brittle with age.  [Edit: the school glue is so temporary that it doesn't even stick the first time.  I'm having better luck with Aleene's Tacky Glue, as someone has described here.]
https://gumshoearcana.blogspot.com/2012/04/bellows-taping-methodology-and-videos.html
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 11:23:23 PM by Gonk »
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invadm

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2020, 11:39:27 PM »

Charlie sells a good quality glue, I have used it many time and very good finis,
you can also use   https://ratchford.co.uk/product/prepared-adhesives-pastepva-mix-wheat-starch-1kg/
I use this glue too also very good, if it is your first attempt it will be easier for you to use bookbinding glue, very slow to dry,opining time give you plenty of time to adjust/move up and down & alien all your tapes, you can glue 4-5 strips at a time doesn't dry fast and clear when it does,flexible and paper/card friendly to use..reversible too  ;) to speed up drying time you can add & mix any PVA..smallest pot will give 5-6 sets of bellow you don't need much goes a long way   
wooden frames I use evostick wood glue, for plastic frame contact glue.       
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mselic

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2020, 01:29:10 AM »

I use PVA glue for bellows tape and frame.
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Gonk

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2020, 02:41:37 AM »

Thanks again all.  I have actually found a good mix of tack/grab with a blend of white school glue, a bit of water, and some tacky glue ("Aleene's").  All PVA so hopefully will play nice.  I will have to live with just one side being retaped, since I didn't order enough tape (facepalm), but that side that's done is looking much sharper.  Hopefully more airtight as well.  The rest of the tape should arrive Monday.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 02:50:57 AM by Gonk »
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Nigel.H

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 09:13:41 AM »

http://www.hewitonline.com/Marble_Papers_s/47.htm

Hewit do 1) Marble paper ( and others) for re-papering bellows 2) Archival PVA which is reversible if needs be & 3) Arbetex "leather cloth" which is suitable for making bellows tape, using a straight edge and a roller cutter.  Skiver grain is marginally more appropriate to my eye than the Morocco finish.

They also do Kraft paper and 'mull' as well as various leathers.  Very helpful people, in my experience and fast service.
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chris hall

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 12:34:33 PM »

anybody tried the hewit marble paper? im guessing the wax finish isnt a good idea as might be difficult taking glue for bellows tape. the machine assisted looks reasonable priced and nice choice of patterns...anybody tried it?
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Nigel.H

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2020, 03:21:20 PM »

I used it on this re-working of a Pokerwork.  The tape, on this work, is commercial bellows "tape", not the Hewit's Arbetex material which I have since sourced, as mentioned above.  It comes as a sheet, but is easy enough to cut into strips.  It is actually easier to work than 'some' commercial bellows tape - it folds more cleanly/sharply and holds the crease well when glued - and looks to have a better wearing surface than some.

The marbled paper sheet size works very well for P/work size bellows, in terms of giving a side and a top/bottom, per sheet width.  I use a metal template and cut individual strips with V's and an overlap on one edge, rather than trying to do multiple folds.  I think I used less than x3 sheets ? for the bellows.

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,25410.msg302470.html

     
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Gonk

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2020, 01:00:55 PM »

Hewit do 1) Marble paper ( and others) for re-papering bellows 2) Archival PVA which is reversible if needs be & 3) Arbetex "leather cloth" which is suitable for making bellows tape, using a straight edge and a roller cutter.  Skiver grain is marginally more appropriate to my eye than the Morocco finish.

Thanks, Nigel - this looks like a great option in the UK/EU, but I'm struggling to find something similar in the US.  This product, Skivertex, seems like it might be a close match to Arbetex.  As far as I can tell, both are thin cotton cloth coated with pyroxylin.  But thickness information about either is hard to find.  Has anyone used Skivertex?

https://hollanders.com/products/imitation-leather-black-skivertex?variant=30988783812662
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baz parkes

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2020, 01:18:54 PM »

You do of course need to watch Lester Bailey's video. If nothing else it will remind you you are not the first to undergo such trials and tribulations, and that there is light at the end of the tunnel... :|glug
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Gonk

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2020, 01:32:55 PM »

Baz, having finished that one set of bellows, I think there is probably some legitimacy to the somewhat controversial trope of a "halo effect" which evolved to help a mother forget the pain of childbirth and be more willing to undergo it again...
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Peadar

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2020, 10:34:46 AM »

Now trying to put the new tape on in my own first attempt at partial retaping. The box is a 1920s Wilkinson Excelsior- I am only retaping the folds with significant wear
Using a plain Italian black tape from Charlie Marshall and Starch Paste from Hewitts.Discovering how difficult it is to get this to stick. a couple of folds done and festooned with paper clips to stop the tape springing off.
Now.....how long does paste take to dry? i.e.how long before I can take the paper clips off to do the folds beside the ones I am just after taping?

P
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Nigel.H

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2020, 12:26:14 PM »

I pre-fold the tapes overnight( on Acccordion tape, as sold commercially ) - weighted under a glass chopping board with 'bean tins'.  That helps hold the crease, which in standard tape material I found almost impossible to create from 'flat' whilst applying the tape off the roll.  In the Arbetex it 'holds' the fold much better.....but that is not what I did my first bellows with and not what you have.

I used Hewits Archival PVA, which certainly isn't "instant", but, with a good fold in the tape, is good enough to slip a sheet of greaseproof paper in between each fold.  I then use Stanley trigger/sash-clamps to hold the bellows tight whilst the glue dries.  Lot's of gentle 'wiping down' and along the line of the tape to remove excess glue.  It was dry (? ???) in a couple of hours.....although it probably wasn't 'properly dry', it was dry enough to move on to the next edge.

The better the 'pre' fold in the tape the easier it is to get it to hold to the edge of the bellows, without trying to open up or 'move', indeed I have found the crease / 'fold's' to be the most critical bit for edge taping and re-papering inside the bellows. 

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MikeK

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2020, 01:23:18 PM »

 I work with 6 lengths at a time, folding them to create a crease. After brushing PVA on all of them, I wait approx. 10mins. before fitting them to the bellows.
 Once in place, I wipe them down with a damp cloth followed with a dry towel. Place a weight on the bellows and then prepare the next six and as soon
 as they are ready it is ok to open the bellows. After the whole lot is done, I tend to leave them overnight with a weight on them.
 When I first did some bellows, I used wax paper strips to separate each fold but now I find I don't have to.
   
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 06:49:19 PM by MikeK »
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Peadar

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 01:36:22 PM »

Thanks Nigel. If only I had bought some archival PVA at the same time as the starch paste!
This morning's pasting has dried - the result is less than satisfactory - the tape has only "tacked" down where the paperclips were bearing on it.
This melodeon has side hooks closures so I could clamp the bellows by putting them end down on a table with a weight ontop.

I also bought some archival buckram also from Hewitt, so I could switch to using that to make the rest of the bellows tapes. If I need to get archival Pva I could get some arbetex at the same time.

Think I'll try the weighted folds first. Thanks again.
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Peadar

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2020, 01:55:44 PM »

I work with 6 lengths at a time, folding them to create a crease. After brushing PVA on all of them, I wait 10 approx. before fitting them to the bellows.
 Once in place, I wipe them down with a damp cloth followed with a dry towel. Place a weight on the bellows and then prepare the next six and as soon
 as they are ready it is ok to open the bellows. After the whole lot is done, I tend to leave them overnight with a weight on them.
 When I first did some bellows, I used wax paper strips to separate each fold but now I find I don't have to.
 
Cross posted with you Mike.
The methodology sounds good and I have a number of antique boxes I would like to get back to playability so potentially I could yet be retaping a lot of bellows.

Are you using an archival pva or just interior pva (e.g. Evostik green bottle)? If neccessary can you get tape off a bellows where pva ws the previous glue used?

Obviously on Skye pva for interior joinery is readily obtainable, but archival pva is a dfferent story.

P
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Winston Smith

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2020, 02:16:55 PM »

It might have to be a case of "Speed Bonny Boat", eh, Peader?

I'm about to start on a re-tape of my Erica bellows; been putting it off for a long time. Is it one of my usual dreams, or have I seen actual "bellows tape adhesive" advertised somewhere?
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Julian S

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Re: Bellows glue: best practices?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2020, 03:01:54 PM »

CGM Musical Services Bellows Tape Adhesive does what it says on the box Winston ! A little seems to go a long way...
As to what is in it - I'm sure an expert will know...

J
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