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[-Y-]

Hello all,

With friends, we're currently thinking about forming a band centered on several forms of quadrilles, country dances and the like, ranging from the Irish set dancing, to the Breton avant-deux, set carré from Québec, and we would like to venture out on the English forms of such dances as well.
We're not sure about which caller we'll be working with, so in the meantime, I'd be grateful for more insights on this, either regarding tunes that can be used or the dances themselves.
Thanks in advance,

Y.

[baz parkes]

Hello all,

With friends, we're currently thinking about forming a band centered on several forms of quadrilles, country dances and the like, ranging from the Irish set dancing, to the Breton avant-deux, set carré from Québec, and we would like to venture out on the English forms of such dances as well.
We're not sure about which caller we'll be working with, so in the meantime, I'd be grateful for more insights on this, either regarding tunes that can be used or the dances themselves.
Thanks in advance,

Y.

Hi Y...do you or your band mates read music? I f so you could do worse than getting hold of The Collected Community Dances Manual published by the EFDSS...tunes and dances together. They have recently published a new edition with accompanying CD which you will find on their website. I have some copies of the old edition, plus some other books which would be useful. I would be happy to send you a copy over....if you pm me we can discuss without clogging your thread up...

[-Y-]

Quick follow-up question, that I post here : do dances have their specific music or is it as any other couple dance or set dancing, a type of tune ?

[Rob2Hook]

There are a few dances with their own tunes, but mostly they will just require a tune of the right type, jig, reel, hornpipe, etc. that fits the measure of the dance.  Some fit the feel of a particular dance better than others whether livelier or more sedate.

Rob.

[Peadar]

British Country Dances?

There are four distinct countries and cultural nations in the British Isles each with it's own national language(s) and associated music and dance traditions. Within the each of the four there are distinct regional traditional types of music and dance, quite apart from songs and tunes intimately associated local areas.

The folk cultures of each of the  four countries within (or formerly within) the United Kingdom, have over centuries influenced each other, borrowed from each other, at times hi-jacked each other and yet have retained their individual identities - and within each of those  national cultural identties regional identities continue to exist. 

That's not to discourage an interest in British musics or dance forms - it's just to warn to think of them as a collection of different national forms, not one single type.

I can speak with some knowledge of Scottish Country Dancing - whilst I have huge reservations about the internationalised standardised trajectory of the Royal Scottish Country Dance Society. The Scottish Country Dance Society founded in 1923 set out to revive and maintain thhe country dances of Scotland as distinct from the English  Country Dances, which were already a recognised English dance form.

Scottish country dances use the traditional dance steps of the Highlands (historically the Gaidhlig speaking part of th country).  The older tunes have Gaidhlig roots, and the rythms are very strong - particularly the Strathspey Reels. Which, strangely enough, are claimed to originate in the district of Strath Spey.

Most of the older dances are named for a tune or vica versa. Most of the longways dances are progressive and played/danced eight times through. Firstly  two turns with the originla tune, then usually a second and third tune, before returning to the original for the last time throuh the dance.  - Each dance consists of a series of figures-each  lasting eight bars of music/ eight steps. However real traditional Strathspeys only have four bars in the tune, and two steps are danced to each bar. Don't muck about with a caller for traditional Scottish country dances.
There is a small subset of these dances known in Scotland as ceilidh dances - which virtually everyone knows- minus the footwork. These would include Strip the Willow, Dashing White Sergeant, Orcadian Strip the Willow, The Grand Old Duke of York and the couple dances - Gay Gordons and Highland Schottische. Posties jig and Shiftin' Bobbins are modern Scottish Country dances sometimes danced at ceilidhs, but the old eightsome and foursome reels have died out in the West Highlands. They are the ones you might use a caller for.

English Country Dances - foreign territory to me.

Irish Ceilidh Dancing - in terms of footwork and complexity these are up there with Scottish Country dancing. And almost entirely outside my experience. I have risked a simple dance or two with a very competent partner but that would be the limit of my knowledge.

Welsh Folk Dances - I know they exist as a distinct national form but that is all I know.

There must be some other dancers on here who just mess about a bit with the melodeon.....




 

[Lester]

British Country Dances?
<snip>

To add to Peadar's post he forgot the Welsh who also have their own traditions and dances

[Tone Dumb Greg]

British Country Dances?
<snip>

To add to Peadar's post he forgot the Welsh who also have their own traditions and dances

Don't forget the Cornish.

[Peadar]

British Country Dances?
<snip>

To add to Peadar's post he forgot the Welsh who also have their own traditions and dances

But I have now corrected that mistake...with apologies to Meibion Glyndwr.

And the Cornish .... who were recognised as never having been English, by the English and as having a good climate by the Normans.

Which leaves only the Kingdom of Mann.

[-Y-]

Thanks Peadar for your reminder, on point, but there was not really any source of concern to have: I'm perfectly aware of the various cultures on these islands, and not anywhere near mixing them up, having played and danced some of them already.
The idea is not to have an undefined mix-up of different (although related as you pointed out) traditions, but to be as thorough and respectful of each culture.
The idea is, precisely, to use the similarities as a meeting point, not to blend everything together.

That being said, thanks for your valuable input. It's possible that I used "caller" in a, should I say liberal sense, as the one dealing with explaining the dances to people thay might not know them already (which is guaranteed to happen in France), whether he/she is doing actual calling during the music depends entirely on the dances. For that matter, we'll be working with people that are knowledgeable enough on the various country dances (I use it to refer to dances that are danced in forms comprising at least 4 dancers, whether they are in a quadrille form or not), i.e. not just one of us having only read a beginner's guide, but a real specialist. 

[Peadar]

British Country Dances?
<snip>

To add to Peadar's post he forgot the Welsh who also have their own traditions and dances

Don't forget the Cornish.

Greg has just volunteered to do the  short introduction to Cornish country dances.

[Peadar]

Thanks Peadar for your reminder, on point, but there was not really any source of concern to have: I'm perfectly aware of the various cultures on these islands, and not anywhere near mixing them up, having played and danced some of them already.
The idea is not to have an undefined mix-up of different (although related as you pointed out) traditions, but to be as thorough and respectful of each culture.
The idea is, precisely, to use the similarities as a meeting point, not to blend everything together.

That being said, thanks for your valuable input. It's possible that I used "caller" in a, should I say liberal sense, as the one dealing with explaining the dances to people thay might not know them already (which is guaranteed to happen in France), whether he/she is doing actual calling during the music depends entirely on the dances. For that matter, we'll be working with people that are knowledgeable enough on the various country dances (I use it to refer to dances that are danced in forms comprising at least 4 dancers, whether they are in a quadrille form or not), i.e. not just one of us having only read a beginner's guide, but a real specialist. 

Thanks for that - it does sound a really interesting idea. Just don't lose a grip on what distingushes your own tradition as you explore others .

[Lester]

It's possible that I used "caller" in a, should I say liberal sense, as the one dealing with explaining the dances to people thay might not know them already (which is guaranteed to happen in France), whether he/she is doing actual calling during the music depends entirely on the dances.

That is exactly what my band's caller does (and most every English Ceilidh band I know of), including the calling during the dance as we play mostly for 'amateurs' is non-folk dancers.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

British Country Dances?
<snip>

To add to Peadar's post he forgot the Welsh who also have their own traditions and dances

Don't forget the Cornish.

Greg has just volunteered to do the  short introduction to Cornish country dances.

Three categories.
'Scoot' or step dancing,
'Furry' or Feast Day dances and dance which you will often find in a 'Troyl', the Cornish equivalent of a céilidh.
Nos Lowen (Happy Night). A simpler, spontaneous form of social dancing to Cornish traditional tunes such as jigs, hornpipes, waltzes and reels

and look out for the Snail Creep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCWWaVh_oO4

[Andy Next Tune]

Y, if you are on Facebook, I suggest you join the E-ceilidh UK group then also ask your question there.

I'm sure you'll find a number of experienced callers who will be happy to share their knowledge to help you put a list of dances together.

[Andy Next Tune]

You might find this website a useful resource for some English Ceilidh dance notation, most have music recommendations as well - https://www.webfeet.org/eceilidh/dances/index.html

[2rightfeet]

You might find this website a useful resource for some English Ceilidh dance notation, most have music recommendations as well - https://www.webfeet.org/eceilidh/dances/index.html

While I would be happy to dance the evening away to any or all of the dances on that list, it illustrates a major problem for anyone trying to compile a set of ‘English’ dances. It’s a complete mixture of traditional English, Old Tyme, Scottish, Playford, American, newly made dances and even one officially described as “an American version of a dance of Irish origin” (Waves of Tory) – and even one or two that I can’t identify the origins of. In many cases the origin of the dances is given – but not all.

[Theo]

You might find this website a useful resource for some English Ceilidh dance notation, most have music recommendations as well - https://www.webfeet.org/eceilidh/dances/index.html

While I would be happy to dance the evening away to any or all of the dances on that list, it illustrates a major problem for anyone trying to compile a set of ‘English’ dances. It’s a complete mixture of traditional English, Old Tyme, Scottish, Playford, American, newly made dances and even one officially described as “an American version of a dance of Irish origin” (Waves of Tory) – and even one or two that I can’t identify the origins of. In many cases the origin of the dances is given – but not all.

I think that is a true reflection of the way that dances, like tunes, move around.  Within what we now see as traditional dances of western Europe there have been successive waves of new dance fashions that have started in  various parts and travelled widely and changes as they travelled.  Well known examples are waltz mazurka, polka, scottish etc. They have all been adopted into traditions and have acquired different regional features.

[-Y-]

While I would be happy to dance the evening away to any or all of the dances on that list, it illustrates a major problem for anyone trying to compile a set of ‘English’ dances. It’s a complete mixture of traditional English, Old Tyme, Scottish, Playford, American, newly made dances and even one officially described as “an American version of a dance of Irish origin” (Waves of Tory) – and even one or two that I can’t identify the origins of. In many cases the origin of the dances is given – but not all.

It's not all surprising for this repertoire, I guess, quadrilles, country dances and the like did travel more so than other, older, dances did. They also moved quite a bit from one social class to another all allong their history (at the point where lineage is difficult to assess, see for that matter the doctoral thesis of Yvon Guilcher).
Thanks for having pointed it out.

Just don't lose a grip on what distingushes your own tradition as you explore others .

Chances are thin on that ground. My main area of "expertise" (a bit pompous, but for lack of a better word) is as a matter of fact the traditional forms of quadrilles you can find on the Eastern part of Brittany (namely the avant-deux, of which you can find several traditional versions in a broad area going from Normandy to Poitou). It's believed to originate from the same country dances that were danced on Courts balls, both in the British Isles and in France: it is said to derive from the figure named l'Été (summer), although several others figures do present popular versions all around France, like the Poule).
I hope you'll start to see how the idea behind the band emerged 

[2rightfeet]

Dances have indeed moved around in the way that Theo and Y suggest. When I was a youngster in Scotland, a dance evening always included traditional Scottish set dances, Old Tyme couple dances and ballroom dances (and in due course the Twist then its successors were grafted into the repertoire; the Eightsome Reel now seems to be dead or dying, as Peadar suggests).
The problem in relation to English dances is that a fair bit of the ‘movement’ has been conscious raiding of various sources by the English Folk Dance and Song Society when it was trying to revive social country dancing from the 1950s onwards. So it would be completely wrong to suggest that these deliberate imports are in any sense ‘traditional English' country dances.
People then tend to lose sight of the distinctions between the dance styles from different sources. An unfortunate side effect (from my Scottish perspective at any rate) is that I sometimes find myself falling over my feet when a band shifts from a tune that fits the original stepping of the dance to one that does not.

[Peadar]

................... a dance evening always included traditional Scottish set dances, Old Tyme couple dances and ballroom dances (and in due course the Twist then its successors were grafted into the repertoire...................Yes!!!! The Birdie Dance! One of the Great Scottish Dundee Ceilidh Dances of the 1980's

The problem in relation to English dances is that a fair bit of the ‘movement’ has been conscious raiding of various sources by the English Folk Dance and Song Society when it was trying to revive social country dancing from the 1950s onwards. So it would be completely wrong to suggest that these deliberate imports are in any sense ‘traditional English' country dances.
People then tend to lose sight of the distinctions between the dance styles from different sources. An unfortunate side effect (from my Scottish perspective at any rate) is that I sometimes find myself falling over my feet when a band shifts from a tune that fits the original stepping of the dance to one that does not.

....Yes!!!! The Birdie Dance! One of the Great Scottish Dundee Ceilidh Dances of the 1980's


"The problem in relation to English dances is that a fair bit of the ‘movement’ has been conscious raiding of various sources by the English Folk Dance and Song Society when it was trying to revive social country dancing from the 1950s onwards. So it would be completely wrong to suggest that these deliberate imports are in any sense ‘traditional English' country dances. "

In fairness  I suspect that "English" covers a wide range of quite strong regional taditions.....many of which were heavily influenced in the second half of the 19th century by Irish immigration.