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Author Topic: British country dances  (Read 4124 times)

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CAB

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Re: British country dances
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2020, 09:49:26 PM »

The problem in relation to English dances is that a fair bit of the ‘movement’ has been conscious raiding of various sources by the English Folk Dance and Song Society when it was trying to revive social country dancing from the 1950s onwards. So it would be completely wrong to suggest that these deliberate imports are in any sense ‘traditional English' country dances.

Even going right back to the point when there were separate dance and songs societies (pre 1932), the dance people were always more interested in getting people dancing (fair enough in itself) than in authenticity or fidelity to tradition.  So sadly, yes they apparently imported all kinds of things to "improve" our social dances.

People then tend to lose sight of the distinctions between the dance styles from different sources. An unfortunate side effect (from my Scottish perspective at any rate) is that I sometimes find myself falling over my feet when a band shifts from a tune that fits the original stepping of the dance to one that does not.

A similar blurring of styles seems to happen now with the music, even away from dancing.  Too many sessions round here where people play an English tune, a Swedish one, something Belgian, a couple of well known Irish polkas - and it all ends up sounding the same because someone buys an instrument (often a banjo  :'( ), learns where the notes are then starts playing tunes without any reference to the techniques appropriate to a particular national or regional tradition.
Off-topic rant over - that's better!
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george garside

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Re: British country dances
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2020, 12:34:50 AM »

as a 'non purist'   I  include such dances as la russe, gay gordens, Blaydon races,  st Bernard waltz, polka set. barn dance set, various waltzs etc etc,
as to tunes I prefer to play 'singy' tunes so that those sitting out can join in the fun

I presume I am playing for 'English ceilidhs' perhaps  it should be 'ceildihs, ho downs, barn dances or whatever in England?

I couldn't care less about the origins of the tunes as long as they fit the dances   my only aim being to provide a 'good night; for the punters.

with apologies to the theoreticians and purists  but written after a an evening on the 'falling over juice'!

a not quite sober george


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CAB

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Re: British country dances
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 10:18:54 AM »

as a 'non purist'   I  include such dances as la russe, gay gordens, Blaydon races,  st Bernard waltz, polka set. barn dance set, various waltzs etc etc,
as to tunes I prefer to play 'singy' tunes so that those sitting out can join in the fun

Nothing wrong with any of those.  Interesting list though.  For me, it includes at least one quite serious dance among other more widely known ones.  All very subjective.  Yes to the singy tunes for a typical dance audience.  My preferred Circassian set at the moment is Nellie the Elephant, Runaway Train and Barwick Green.

I presume I am playing for 'English ceilidhs' perhaps  it should be 'ceildihs, ho downs, barn dances or whatever in England?

But doesn't it speak volumes that we don't have a straigtforward name for these events?  The average English person is so unaware of their social dance tradition that they won't know what you mean.  The assumption seems to be that if it's fun it can't possibly be English.  If you say 'ceilidh' they assume it's Scottish or Irish (not unreasonably).  If you call it a barn dance they turn up in stetsons and cowboy boots.  The notion that they're doing the kind of dances their great-grandparents did doesn't occur (or appeal, perhaps) to the average wedding guest or PTA fundraiser attender.

I couldn't care less about the origins of the tunes as long as they fit the dances 

As long as we don't forget where they come from and respect that when appropriate.  I still wince when I remember playing a mazurka in a session - a friend commented, "That was nice but it's usually played as a mazurka." Ouch!

written after a an evening on the 'falling over juice'!
a not quite sober george

Well I hope you're feeling OK this morning!
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2020, 10:55:40 AM »

A similar blurring of styles seems to happen now with the music, even away from dancing.  Too many sessions round here where people play an English tune, a Swedish one, something Belgian, a couple of well known Irish polkas - and it all ends up sounding the same because someone buys an instrument (often a banjo  :'( ), learns where the notes are then starts playing tunes without any reference to the techniques appropriate to a particular national or regional tradition.
Off-topic rant over - that's better!

Can't speak for what happens in your area, but I often hear that kind of argument, and am not too worried about that. Firstly because I think that today it's a good thing for any traditional musician to be curious about how traditional music is made in other regions. I genuinely think that it nourrishes your own style. For instance, I wouldn't play music from my area as I do now if I hadn't had major musical epiphanies listening to people such as Karen Tweed, Lau, The Gloaming or Ånon Egeland (to only name a few), shared equally with old recordings of traditional player from home.
I think the main thing is to remain conscious that you can't be relevant in that many musical styles, and to remain humble. That being granted, there's nothing wrong in playing tunes from everywhere for the pleasure of it, in full awereness that it's not meant to be as relevant as the music that would be played by artists having dedicated their musical career to this specific style.
And secondly, I'm not that worried about any 'slippery slope' regarding the fact that local expressions would be replaced by an undifferentiated mode, because I'm seeing a lot of young players having a taste for regional styles. But as I said earlier, I can't speak for what happens near where you live.

Closer to the topic, I don't think the above reasoning applies very well to dances, that are more prone (by nature and due to the way they are practised) to approximations.

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Re: British country dances
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2020, 10:58:10 AM »

In Cumberland (and elsewhere, I believe) they used to call is a 'Merry neet', and in Kent a 'Hopping' (not to be confused with the aromatic flowers).  The words are there but for some reason we prefer other people's.
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2020, 11:11:58 AM »


Can't speak for what happens in your area, but I often hear that kind of argument, and am not too worried about that. Firstly because I think that today it's a good thing for any traditional musician to be curious about how traditional music is made in other regions. I genuinely think that it nourishes your own style. For instance, I wouldn't play music from my area as I do now if I hadn't had major musical epiphanies listening to people such as Karen Tweed, Lau, The Gloaming or Ånon Egeland (to only name a few), shared equally with old recordings of traditional player from home.
I think the main thing is to remain conscious that you can't be relevant in that many musical styles, and to remain humble. That being granted, there's nothing wrong in playing tunes from everywhere for the pleasure of it, in full awereness that it's not meant to be as relevant as the music that would be played by artists having dedicated their musical career to this specific style.
And secondly, I'm not that worried about any 'slippery slope' regarding the fact that local expressions would be replaced by an undifferentiated mode, because I'm seeing a lot of young players having a taste for regional styles. But as I said earlier, I can't speak for what happens near where you live.

Closer to the topic, I don't think the above reasoning applies very well to dances, that are more prone (by nature and due to the way they are practised) to approximations.

It's nothing new,  people have been sharing tunes all over western Europe (and probably beyond) for centuries.   Take a look at the Vickers Manuscript from 1770 and you will find tunes from England Ireland Scotland France and Scandinavia and possibly further afield. 

And regional differences still exist despite all the interchange of tunes so I see no reason to worry that traditions are being diluted.  The playing style on my home patch in Tyneside is distinct even from York which is less than 100 miles away. Even bigger differences exist between here and the south of England.  Interchange and sharing of music and dance keeps things fresh and alive.  There might be a justifiable worry that parts of the UK where the music is largely based on the revival in the 70s is less secure in it's base than in Scotland or Ireland, and even Northumberland, where the traditions have more continuous links to the past.
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2020, 01:39:52 PM »

I've just been reading an interesting paper in the 1978 Folk Music Journal, about social dancing in a Norfolk village from 1900 to 1945. It relates how the old local dances such as the Norfolk Long Dance and Heel and Toe polka (and the traditional tunes that went with them), were gradually replaced by 'old time' dances. Of course, the music - and instruments used changed with piano accordions becoming popular... I'm not certain whether the article is available online - it includes some dance notation and tunes.
Whilst 'country dances' were taught in many schools from the twenties and thirties these were not absorbed into the local social dance repertoire. I'm sure that was also the case elsewhere. I do wonder how many of the dances I consider local and traditional in England are more the result of the folk dance revival and the introduction of calling - but after all waltzes, polkas and schottisches were revolutionary as well - and were taught by professionals.

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Re: British country dances
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2020, 03:07:54 PM »

..
Whilst 'country dances' were taught in many schools from the twenties and thirties these were not absorbed into the local social dance repertoire. I'm sure that was also the case elsewhere. I do wonder how many of the dances I consider local and traditional in England are more the result of the folk dance revival and the introduction of calling - but after all waltzes, polkas and schottisches were revolutionary as well - and were taught by professionals.

We sometimes had country dancing in my primary school in Hertfordshire during the late 1950s/early 1960s. Sometimes the music was provided by a gramophone playing 78 rpm records, but on a few occasions we had a real fiddle player come into the school to provide the music. One of the teachers did the calling/guiding us through the dances. Happy days...
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2020, 03:22:43 PM »

I've just been reading an interesting paper in the 1978 Folk Music Journal, about social dancing in a Norfolk village from 1900 to 1945. It relates how the old local dances such as the Norfolk Long Dance and Heel and Toe polka (and the traditional tunes that went with them), were gradually replaced by 'old time' dances. Of course, the music - and instruments used changed with piano accordions becoming popular... I'm not certain whether the article is available online - it includes some dance notation and tunes.
Whilst 'country dances' were taught in many schools from the twenties and thirties these were not absorbed into the local social dance repertoire. I'm sure that was also the case elsewhere. I do wonder how many of the dances I consider local and traditional in England are more the result of the folk dance revival and the introduction of calling - but after all waltzes, polkas and schottisches were revolutionary as well - and were taught by professionals.

Thanks for that.  I see it listed on the EFDDS/FMJ website and have requested a copy.  I agree there can be very few areas where dancing survived as distinct from being (re)discovered during the revival.  The waltzes, polkas etc. you mention became mainstream back in the 18th and 19th centuries and entered tradition; whereas "folk dancing" remains the preserve of a relatively small group of hobbyists.

There might be a justifiable worry that parts of the UK where the music is largely based on the revival in the 70s is less secure in it's base than in Scotland or Ireland, and even Northumberland, where the traditions have more continuous links to the past.

Absolutely.  Your part of the world is fine in that respect, Theo.  Down yer, a lot of folks seem to decide to take up "folk music" on their retirement (OK in itself) but without any reference to tradition or sources.  We're in Henry Cave country but any reference to that name is met with blank stares.  Lovely Carolan tunes in 3/4 are regularly turned into oom-pah-pah waltzes with dum-ching-ching guitar accompaniment - and this in a pub where step-dancing was done within living memory (to melodeon, by the way).
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2020, 05:06:42 PM »

Lovely Carolan tunes in 3/4 are regularly turned into oom-pah-pah waltzes with dum-ching-ching guitar accompaniment - and this in a pub where step-dancing was done within living memory (to melodeon, by the way).

Arrgh.  Yes it happens here too, though not too often.   I'm still struggling to get some of my session mates to understand the difference between a waltz and a mazurka.
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2020, 05:55:11 PM »

Isn't part of the problem that very few musicians are actually interested in or perhaps even know in their own bit of heath?


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Re: British country dances
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2020, 06:33:03 PM »

To me its how the tunes are played rather than the actual choice of tunes. 

the musicians must  avoid 'dirginess' and instead provide lots of 'lift' for the dancers which involves watching the feet of some of the best dancers on the floor.

rhythm, dynamics and phrasing are all important irrespective of the origin or a tune  and many tunes  can easily  be adapted  to give the best rhythm for a particular lotof dancers to dance to.

Many years ago John K did a workshop about um's and pa's  - some participents said that  the ums and pas should be equal, some said a long um and a short Pa whilst others thought a short um and a long pa would best provide the dancers with 'lift'


as john put it - the dancers land on the  'um' as they are unable to hover andj will land irrespective of what the band is or isn't doing.   On the other hand a good strong 'pa' is needed to get them back up in the air.


after an hour or so of um-ing and pa-ing  all but a few agreed that a short um and along pa  is best for dance music.

george


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Re: British country dances
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2020, 11:10:37 PM »

To me its how the tunes are played rather than the actual choice of tunes. 

the musicians must  avoid 'dirginess' and instead provide lots of 'lift' for the dancers which involves watching the feet of some of the best dancers on the floor.

rhythm, dynamics and phrasing are all important irrespective of the origin or a tune  and many tunes  can easily  be adapted  to give the best rhythm for a particular lotof dancers to dance to.

Many years ago John K did a workshop about um's and pa's  - some participents said that  the ums and pas should be equal, some said a long um and a short Pa whilst others thought a short um and a long pa would best provide the dancers with 'lift'


as john put it - the dancers land on the  'um' as they are unable to hover andj will land irrespective of what the band is or isn't doing.   On the other hand a good strong 'pa' is needed to get them back up in the air.


after an hour or so of um-ing and pa-ing  all but a few agreed that a short um and along pa  is best for dance music.

george


george

Which is another way of saying that playing with the *em*phasis on the downbeat drives the dancers into the ground, and playing with the em*pha*sys on the backbeat lifts them up.

I disagree that this is all down to what you do on the bass end, it's much more down to what you do on the treble end. I play the bass end with a combination of what you'd play on a bass guitar (for the "um") and what you'd play on a rhythm guitar (for the "pah"), with bass runs and three-button chords (or sometimes long bass noes and no chords) as I see fit -- all the "punch" and "lift" comes from the right hand, using doubled notes and emphasis on the backbeat and squeeeezing the notes out and punching in harmonies/octaves to get this.

Some years ago someone came up and asked me what I did with the bass end to make playing for Morris sound so punchy. They were shocked when I stopped playing the bass end and none of the punch disappeared...

(and nobody's ever complained that me playing Shooting hasn't got oomph, where the bass end is a contnuous D drone)

Of course you can mess this up by playing a mushy or downbeat bass end, but this is negative rather than positive -- it's the right hand that does the hard work of geting life and lift into a tune.
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2020, 11:53:21 PM »

This hand, that hand... 

It's one instrument played with two hands.  How you work them together to get the desired result is complex, variable and has as much to do with what you don't play as what you do.  And then there's bellows control, dynamics, attack and duration...
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Re: British country dances
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2020, 12:21:37 AM »

To me its how the tunes are played rather than the actual choice of tunes. 

the musicians must  avoid 'dirginess' and instead provide lots of 'lift' for the dancers which involves watching the feet of some of the best dancers on the floor.

rhythm, dynamics and phrasing are all important irrespective of the origin or a tune  and many tunes  can easily  be adapted  to give the best rhythm for a particular lotof dancers to dance to.

Many years ago John K did a workshop about um's and pa's  - some participents said that  the ums and pas should be equal, some said a long um and a short Pa whilst others thought a short um and a long pa would best provide the dancers with 'lift'


as john put it - the dancers land on the  'um' as they are unable to hover andj will land irrespective of what the band is or isn't doing.   On the other hand a good strong 'pa' is needed to get them back up in the air.


after an hour or so of um-ing and pa-ing  all but a few agreed that a short um and along pa  is best for dance music.

george


george

Which is another way of saying that playing with the *em*phasis on the downbeat drives the dancers into the ground, and playing with the em*pha*sys on the backbeat lifts them up.

I disagree that this is all down to what you do on the bass end, it's much more down to what you do on the treble end. I play the bass end with a combination of what you'd play on a bass guitar (for the "um") and what you'd play on a rhythm guitar (for the "pah"), with bass runs and three-button chords (or sometimes long bass noes and no chords) as I see fit -- all the "punch" and "lift" comes from the right hand, using doubled notes and emphasis on the backbeat and squeeeezing the notes out and punching in harmonies/octaves to get this.

Some years ago someone came up and asked me what I did with the bass end to make playing for Morris sound so punchy. They were shocked when I stopped playing the bass end and none of the punch disappeared...

(and nobody's ever complained that me playing Shooting hasn't got oomph, where the bass end is a contnuous D drone)

Of course you can mess this up by playing a mushy or downbeat bass end, but this is negative rather than positive -- it's the right hand that does the hard work of geting life and lift into a tune.

absolutely agree that the rhythm should come from the way the melody is played.  the bass should be lightly tapped  to emphasise the treble rhytm or sometimes not played at all.

for  what its worth my influences are northumbrian, Scottish and irish with a touch of Dartmoor. I find  some so called English style tunes more downlifiting than uplifiting!
absolutely agree that the rhythm should come from the way the trebleis played
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