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Author Topic: Help please! with 6/8 time signature  (Read 1621 times)

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arty

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Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« on: August 03, 2020, 09:49:31 PM »

I am hoping someone can help me. I am just starting to learn a few Playford tunes and I notice that several are written in 6/8 time.

The first tune I am learning is 'Heart's Ease', which is simple enough but, I am having difficulty in knowing how to fit the basses in. Part of me wants to count 1, 2, 1, 2 but I know it must be 1,2,3,4,5,6.

Listening to many different versions on YouTube, some are really slow and others seem to go at quite a speed. If it was to be played, even at a moderate speed, surely one doesn't play a bass on each of the 6 beats? That would sound very cumbersome, wouldn't it?


Could someone tell me which beats to play a bass on?

For those interested, here is a version fromYouTube:  https://youtu.be/ZTNhCdHlMpo

Thank you!
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Eshed

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 09:54:06 PM »

Jigs are 6/8 and the version you linked sounds like it would work as a jig, so Bass on 1,4 and chord on 3,6.
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arty

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 10:03:49 PM »

Jigs are 6/8 and the version you linked sounds like it would work as a jig, so Bass on 1,4 and chord on 3,6.

Right - thank you very much, I shall try that slowly tomorrow. I guess you get a feel for it after a while.
Cheers Eshed!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 10:19:55 PM »

I am hoping someone can help me. I am just starting to learn a few Playford tunes and I notice that several are written in 6/8 time.

The first tune I am learning is 'Heart's Ease', which is simple enough but, I am having difficulty in knowing how to fit the basses in. Part of me wants to count 1, 2, 1, 2 but I know it must be 1,2,3,4,5,6.

You are right with your instinct. The 6/8 time signature tells you how many quavers (eighth-notes) in a bar, but it doesn't tell you how many beats (or pulses) there are in a bar. In a jig, there are two pulses in a bar, so that is your "1, 2," etc. Each pulse lasts for 3 quavers, so the two-pulse feel gives you your time-signature total of 6 quavers in the bar. For a basic jig rhythm, you can initially use a left-hand accompaniment of 'bass - chord, bass - chord' to a 'rum-ty, tum-ty' rhythm in each bar.

Quote
Listening to many different versions on YouTube, some are really slow and others seem to go at quite a speed. If it was to be played, even at a moderate speed, surely one doesn't play a bass on each of the 6 beats? That would sound very cumbersome, wouldn't it?
yes a bass on each of the 6 quavers would be very cumbersome. So as I've hinted at above you would play the bass on quavers 1 and 4 and chord on quavers 3 and 6. That gives you the rum - ty tum - ty feel.

Some slow airs might also be written in 6/8 time signature, but those have a completely different feel - much slower - and a LH accompaniment could similarly be quite different: think sustained chords and minimal basses. 


Quote
Could someone tell me which beats to play a bass on?
For those interested, here is a version fromYouTube:  https://youtu.be/ZTNhCdHlMpo
As above and as Eshed has replied,
bass on quavers 1 and 4 and chord on quavers 3 and 6.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 10:36:04 PM »

I am hoping someone can help me. I am just starting to learn a few Playford tunes and I notice that several are written in 6/8 time.

The first tune I am learning is 'Heart's Ease...

Just for accuracy, it's worth being aware that Heart's Ease is given a 6/4 time signature in Playford, not 6/8.

[Well, to be even more accurate, the tune doesn't have a time sigature, just notes, which fit a 6/4 signature]
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 10:41:45 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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arty

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 10:45:10 PM »

Thank you Steve, between you and Eshed, that is very clear.


Ok Greg....the arrangement I have been given, in three parts, is 6/8. Obviously, the arranger has made this alteration. Played as a 6/4, is the rhythm different to a 6/8?
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Calum

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 11:00:57 PM »

Ok Greg....the arrangement I have been given, in three parts, is 6/8. Obviously, the arranger has made this alteration. Played as a 6/4, is the rhythm different to a 6/8?

It's possible to read 6/4 as being 3 pairs of two crotchets *or* 2 groups of 3.  The latter is more likely in practice, but the phrasing of the music itself is what really tells you.

One comment on 6/8 timing in general that I find useful with my students is to point out that of the three subdivisions of the beat, the first and third pulse is very stable.  You can learn to clap it - try counting out loud 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 and clapping on the one and the three, then stop clapping counting, but maintain the clapping rhythm.  If you can get that crotchet-quaver groove in your mind and fit whatever tune you're working on to it, that can be really helpful for timing purposes. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 12:37:18 PM by Calum »
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arty

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2020, 11:07:05 PM »

Thank you Calum, I will study this tomorrow, I’m falling asleep now !
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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 11:10:19 PM »

Thank you Steve, between you and Eshed, that is very clear.


Ok Greg....the arrangement I have been given, in three parts, is 6/8. Obviously, the arranger has made this alteration. Played as a 6/4, is the rhythm different to a 6/8?

6/4 is effectively the same as 6/8; the note values are simply written differently with six crotchet (quarter) notes to a bar. You still feel the same two pulses to a bar, as if it were 6/8, as described earlier.

Older music, say 18th century or earlier, tended to be notated with longer note values than we use today *. So it is quite common to see 6/4 or 9/4 time signatures, where we would today write them in 6/8 or 9/8.

I'm not really sure how or why this change occurred. Possibly (and this is my own opinion) in 6/8 (say), the beaming of the notes - the thick line connecting groups of quavers - made the music easier to read, as beams indicated the pulse groups. A tune notated in 6/4 would not be able to have any beamings, so the pulse groups would not be able to be visually expressed.

* The exception to this seems to be in waltzes. Some 18th and 19th century waltzes would often be written in 3/8 time, whereas today we would nearly always write them in 3/4 time
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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2020, 11:13:47 PM »


One comment on 6/8 timing in general that I find useful with my students is to point out that of the three subdivisions of the beat, the first and third pulse is very stable.  You can learn to clap it - try counting out loud 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 ...
Confusing! That would be 9/8 or 9/4, not 6/8 or 6/4.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2020, 11:19:12 PM »

Just to confuse me a bit, Chris P's transcript shows 6/4 but, in the original manuscript, the time signature looks more like C (common time), although it's not very clear. The early editions use the old system of circles and numbers, which I don't understand very well. I was just looking at the note durations. Here's a pdf copy.  Here's a jpg. Anyone?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 09:21:05 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2020, 12:53:56 AM »

I suspect 6/4 was perceived as a “vulgar” fraction.

in early 60s primary school it was almost a crime not to reduce that to 1½. That wouldn’t work musically of course, but halving the unit of time => 6/8 solves both issues.

The “beat”? Depends entirely what the dance is doing, but dum cha cha dum cha cha is pretty vulgar in dancability terms.

 
Do bear in mind that taking finger(s) Off a note is as much a rhythm event as putting it on.

I often like to play flat bass+chord over beats 1,2, then off fairly abruptly beat 3 in 6/8. Repeat that over 4,5,6 to start with. It can add  real push to the melody, often “informs the feet”, and is almost mandatory for 6/8 bourrée. They even overstress that to both, off-off, both-off-off!

So you might try that too? But get 1-2, off solid first. In the end you’ll mix them all up.

Just spotted your video. Whoopee! Real dancers.  👍  Although they go back and forth à la bourrée this particular one is really very diddley diddley, not a natural melodeon piece even of you play cross rowed. My gut favours Steve’s bass,off,chord. Chord,off,bass might be a variation.  I’d also say keep it light, tacatto. Most of the action is happening on rt end

6/8 ain’t easy. So many different dance rhythms use it, you need to “feel” which is right. 
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arty

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2020, 07:29:33 AM »

Thank you everyone...I find this interesting and very helpful.

Every Sunday, I meet up with four friends and we play together. Up to now, it has been all French and Scandinavian music but we have decided to add some early English to the mix.

Two violins, English Tenor/Treble Concertina, (sometimes Baritone Concertina), a Ukelele/Whistle player and me, all playing different parts, makes for a great afternoon of music. Going by, what we have played through so far, the Playford melodies are really very simple but, multiplied across 5 instruments playing different harmony lines, the effect is really rather beautiful. ‘All in a Garden Green’ is a perfect example - on my own, I probably wouldn’t have bothered to play it but together and with all the harmonies going on, it is simple but delightful.

So yes Chris, I would think many, if not most of them are not natural melodeon pieces but shared between other instruments, they hold a kind of magic.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 07:36:00 AM by arty »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2020, 07:42:55 AM »

Just to confuse me a bit, Chris P's transcript shows 6/4 but, in the original manuscript, the time signature looks more like C (common time), although it's not very clear. The early editions use the old system of circles and numbers, which I don't understand very well. I was just looking at the note durations. Here's a pdf copy. Anyone?
I would say that this is one of those examples where the time signature, barring and note durations are all rather contradictory. The old manuscripts were not always correct! In this case it's the note durations which make the most sense and we are at perfect liberty to tidy things up with a 6/4 time signature and some bar lines inserted as appropriate. If in doubt, try playing the tune and seeing/hearing what makes sense.
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Julian S

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2020, 08:28:08 AM »

Interesting discussion - I might just try this tune and see what options I arrive at (trying not to be influenced by recordings - although I do seem to be influenced by Andy Cutting and Leveret of late !). But I'd be playing as a soloist - I'd probably take a different approach in an ensemble or if I was playing for dancing.
I'm with Chris - to me most of the action is right hand - and I'd want the melody (and rhythm) to be underlain by left hand rather than dominated too much.

J
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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2020, 08:55:03 AM »

I remember someone once saying to me that some 6/8 tunes are galumphing elephants, and some are skittering mice. The "elephants" (slower and more march-like) have very strong 1 and 4 beats, and need just a little "backbeat" on 4 and 6 to keep the pulse going. The "mice" (faster and more flowing) get squished by this sort of approach to the basses, and, I think, benefit by more occasional emphases of stand-out notes in the melody. It's also worth trying some different patterns for variety - so for example bass on 1, then chord on 2,4 and 6; or just bass on 1, chord on 3 and then nothing for the second half of the bar. Or just play about with the many other options!
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2020, 08:59:51 AM »


I often like to play flat bass+chord over beats 1,2, then off fairly abruptly beat 3 in 6/8. Repeat that over 4,5,6 to start with. It can add  real push to the melody, often “informs the feet”, and is almost mandatory for 6/8 bourrée. They even overstress that to both, off-off, both-off-off!

So you might try that too? But get 1-2, off solid first. In the end you’ll mix them all up.


Can you give an audio exampleof what you mean, please Chris?
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Calum

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Re: Help please! with 6/8 time signature
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2020, 12:38:24 PM »


One comment on 6/8 timing in general that I find useful with my students is to point out that of the three subdivisions of the beat, the first and third pulse is very stable.  You can learn to clap it - try counting out loud 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 ...
Confusing! That would be 9/8 or 9/4, not 6/8 or 6/4.

Yes, I take your point - I was talking about the compound feel, regardless of metre, but the point I had in mind was avoiding 1-2-3 (pause) 1-2-3 (pause)....
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