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Author Topic: Making a box less "polite"  (Read 1825 times)

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Gonk

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Making a box less "polite"
« on: August 09, 2020, 02:26:16 PM »

Last month, I refurbished a 50s 'Rigoletto' A/D, with steel reeds and large airtight bellows.  It should by rights be loud, but it is rather quiet.  The new owner likes the volume output of the bass end but would like the melody side to be louder.  I suggested I could see if the holes in the fondo can be enlarged to allow more air passage.  I'm also wondering if the reedblocks are clamped down securely enough against the fondo.  Are there other tricks for increasing the volume?  I have read some thoughts on varnishing the chamber, which seems a bit "magical" to me.  The owner specifically requested a drier tuning, so making it wetter is the absolute last resort.
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Theo

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2020, 02:43:37 PM »

What kind of valves did you use? Heavy valves can make a box quieter.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Gonk

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2020, 02:53:42 PM »

True, I left the original valves as some only needed some straightening.  But I remember noting that they seemed thicker than any I'd ever seen.

Edit: Thanks Theo - that seems like a good place to start.  I'll update when I have the box in hand.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 03:41:38 PM by Gonk »
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2020, 06:22:18 PM »

I recall a friend having a similar problem with a Hohner Pokerwork.  Someone had given it a little TLC, general cleaning and tidy up.  The grille cloth had, over the years, turned a delightful shade of tobacco so had been replaced with a tasteful natural cloth, but its weave was too tight and it muffled the treble end.  The design of each model effectively sets limitations so a number of small improvements is all one can do.  Hopefully the sum of the improvements will be sufficient.  I found the Saltarelle Bouebe also needed a bit more oomph to counter its strong basses.  I removed the pierced silver plastic grille "cloth" and replaced it with black speaker grille cloth.  Much better and it got rid of that unwanted bling.

The "large bellows" could well be a limiting factor as they will produce  a lower pressure for the input effort compared with bellows of a smaller cross section - but you're stuck with what fits the box!  Bass reeds reach their limits with a large throughput of air, but less pressure than the treble reeds.  On my smaller boxes I can still get an increase in treble volume well after the basses have choked.  The larger Club boxes just don't generate those sort of pressures and really require a bit of tremolo to their tuning to cut through their rich and full basses.

Rob.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2020, 06:53:13 PM »

True, I left the original valves as some only needed some straightening.  But I remember noting that they seemed thicker than any I'd ever seen.

Edit: Thanks Theo - that seems like a good place to start.  I'll update when I have the box in hand.

I agree with Theo that the valves can make a noticeable difference to the sound of a box.

Also, it's false economy and never a particularly good idea to reuse old valves. Leather valves especially have a limited useful lifespan. Even if they seem ok and not curled, the leather gets somewhat harder and less flexible with age, which in turn can affect the sound. If they date from the 1950s, I would say they are now probably past their 'use by' date. They will all have to be replaced sooner or later, so best to do it right from the start of the refurbishment.

Also, vinyl (plastic) valves tend to result in a brighter sound than leather valves, so it might be worth considering fitting them on most of the reed plates. The lowest 3 or 4 plates could be fitted with leather valves with spring boosters, but the rest could usefully be vinyl.
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Gonk

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2020, 08:39:59 PM »

Rob, Steve, good points, thanks!  Steve, I suppose you're right.  I hadn't considered that stiffness would set in and affect response time.  Might as well do it when the reedplates are out.  I'm glad I have only sent one box out into the world (this one) with old valves.  I'll amend that and always use fresh valves from now on.

Regarding plastic vs. leather, I suppose this has probably been addressed elsewhere on this forum, but my preference is for leather, partly because they seem to be less prone to flutter and buzz.  They also seem to close more quietly and firmly.  I'm assuming that with nice, new, thin leathers, the brightness will increase almost as much.
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Theo

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2020, 09:21:33 PM »

Many quality makers now use a combination with plastic valves above about C5, and leather or composite leather/plastic fir lower pitches. This gives the best of both worlds. 
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Steve C.

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2020, 01:25:44 PM »

Don't A/D's and G/C's "always" sound quieter?  I always thought you needed higher pitch to penetrate.  i.e. D/G!
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playandteach

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2020, 04:43:51 PM »

Don't A/D's and G/C's "always" sound quieter?  I always thought you needed higher pitch to penetrate.  i.e. D/G!
For a given pitch it is possible to have different frequencies dominating  - giving tonal characteristics. Some instruments or players can sound big and fat close to, but the sound doesn't carry. You can sometimes hear these differences as a darker sound or a tinnier sound, and it is not all about volume. Your average tedious conductor / musician will often make a big deal about dynamics. If they asked for a different tone colour or direction to the phrase (again, not just dynamics) they'd be contributing something a little more interesting. As an ex orchestral player, managing your sound to blend is a core skill. Sometimes (as a wind player) you can do this by changing the mouth cavity shape (think vowel sounds), as well as precise air direction. So although you are right in saying that high pitches penetrate, that's not the full story.
I suspect you knew this, and I've missed a little friendly dig at continental box users.
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tirpous

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2020, 06:54:13 PM »

Strictly speaking, higher frequencies propagate less efficiently.  If a D/G is perceived to be louder than an A/D it may have to do with the tremolo (higher beat rate at higher frequencies).
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diatonix

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2020, 07:46:55 PM »

If this is what I think it is, namely a very low-end East German (GDR) box, nothing will help to make it noticeably louder. I'm afraid the  reeds are absolute bottom quality.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 08:02:28 PM by diatonix »
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Gonk

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2020, 10:43:00 PM »

Diatonix, that's bad news.  It is indeed GDR.  I bought it thinking the name indicated helikon/heligonka style bass reeds - no such luck.
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Gonk

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Re: Making a box less "polite"
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2020, 04:25:31 AM »

Just an update on this box.  The owner brought it back around, and I was able to make some good changes.  Reeds stripped down, bathed in acetone, re-valved, holes in both the fondo and the reedblocks enlarged, and the grill customized to allow more air passage.  I also lowered the air button and changed it to a downward-pull type rather than a push-button.  The sum of the effects on the right hand volume is quite noticeable, and the handling no longer feels stiff and resistant, due to the increased airflow.  And now it'll be easy to tell it apart from all the other Rigolettos at the pub...

I'm puzzled as to why small rectangular holes were cut in the fondo and reedblocks in the first place.  It seems to me that the usual round holes are much easier to produce.
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