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[Medleyitis]

Hello everyone,

Background Info:
I'm new to the forum and to diatonic melodeons/acccordions in general, but would really like to buy my first one, to begin learning how to play, and join in the fun.

Since I can only afford make one purchase at this time, I'd like to make the right decision as to whether to start off with a 2-row or a 3-row.

From your forum and other sources, I'm beginning to get the sense that playing a 2-row is more than simply "one more row than a 1-row, one less than a 3-row", and that playing a 3-row is more than simply "one more row than a 2-row". In other words, I'm getting the sense that each is its own animal, so to speak, but I'd like to know in what way.

My interest is in playing various styles of folk music, including but not limited to Polish, Swedish, Dutch, English, Irish, French, American, and Canadian Maritimes. As you can see, my interests are general, and I haven't pinned it down yet.

My Question:
I don't want to sound uninformed (which I am) or naive (which I may be), but can anyone explain the advantages/disadvantages of a 2-row vs. a 3-row?

Any thoughts? Your input will be much appreciated. Thank you.

[GbH]

Before anything else, I think you need to state whether you're thinking of getting a 'quint' box (like, say, a D/G) or a semitone box (e.g. B/C).  Your question applies to both, but the answers might be very different, depending on the system you choose.

Also, if it were a quint box, you'll need to differentiate between having a third row that's tuned to the next logical key (say, like a A/D/G) or whether the row will be there to mainly provide accidentals.  If it's the later, then a 2.5 row instrument is also worth considering.

Obviously, more buttons = more choice.  But what sort of choice is it that you need?  Melodeons are always destined to be limited in one way or another, so it does seem to come down to making the best compromise for your own situation.

[HallelujahAl]

As GbH says, you'll need to define which tuning system you want first before any advice can properly be tendered. Also you may wish to think about how much weight you're prepared to lug about - and whether there are any teachers of your preferred system in your area? In addition of course to suitablity to the kind of music you want to play.

For what it's worth I think that a 2 row quint box (C/F, G/C, D/G or similar) is a perfectly suitable box for most folk styles that I've come across - except of course Irish & Scottish where a semi-toned box is much more useful (in which case I'd recommend a B/C or three row BCC# box with stradella bass).

I also play a 3 row quint box and love it - it really opens up some musical possibilities for me - but I'm glad I started on 2 row, imho a 2 row is the best system to start on. Others will differ I'm sure - but that's my 2p. Hope this helps.
AL

[Theo]

My interest is in playing various styles of folk music, including but not limited to Polish, Swedish, Dutch, English, Irish, French, American, and Canadian Maritimes. As you can see, my interests are general, and I haven't pinned it down yet.

Remember that even a three row is a limited instrument, so you won't find one box that will make a good job of playing all these styles of music.  So my suggestion is to first pick your favourite type of folk music from the list above, and then choose the appropriate box.

For example some typical types of boxes are(and there are many exceptions):

Polish - don't know
Swedish - two row G/C
Dutch two row C/F
Irish two row - B/C or C#/D
English two row D/G
French two row G/C or 3 row G/C/accidentals
American - depends which bit of American!
Canadian - Quebec 1 row or 3 row don't know about other areas.

[LJC]

3 row benefits: there are more notes, which extend the variety and ease of keys you can play in.

3 row disadvantages: there are more notes, which means more wrong notes to play.

Sorry, being flippant!

Don't discount the 2 1/2 row or 1 1/2 row boxes available, as depending on your preferred style, you might find something there which is very useful. If you have a search across the boards there are loads of topics regarding the relative merits of different systems. If you have a read up you'll probably be baffled by some of the discussions, which is probably a good time to ask us!

[craigus]

I'd say a two-row would be the best starter choice.
It may seem like a one-row is a simpler option for a beginner, but that's not really the case - it's great for certain styles and types of music (cajun, quebecois etc), but it's limited in its keys, and in bass accompaniment. Besides, all the tunes you can play on a one-row you can also play on a two-row (in more keys!), plus you've got extra basses to experiment with and the fun of playing across the rows.
You get all this and more on a three or 2.5 row, but you also get a heavier and sometimes slower instrument.
I think a two-row will give you years of pleasure before you even need to start considering a three-row.
I've only ever played quint (D/G, C/F etc), so can't advise on semitone boxes.

[Medleyitis]

My thanks to GbH, HallelujahAl, Theo, LJC, and Craigus for all your input and feedback. I am reasonably sure that I would prefer a two row quint box or three row quint box (with the next logical key, not accidentals) and not a semitone box. Theo, thanks further for your breakdown of rows and keys for each type.

Since I anticipate that sooner or later I would like to play in both systems (that is, 2-row and 3-row), as most of you seem to, I was just wondering whether it was easier/more intuitive to start first with 2-row and then learn 3-row or vice versa, or does it depend on the individual player? While I was typing, Craigus, I think you've just helped to answer this latest question of mine!

[Steve_freereeder]

All good advice so far.

I would add my 2p-worth and say in my opinion, a 2-row instrument in D/G, G/C or C/F (the so-called, but inaccurately described 'quint boxes) is best for a beginner. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned so far is your own particular location - you do not give this. A country would be useful to know. Melodeons are sociable instruments, and much learning and progress can be made playing along with others in workshops and sessions. But you need to ensure that you get the same tuning as most of the other people you are likely to come into contact with. In England and Wales, it will be a D/G box; in France most people play a G/C, in Germany and the Netherlands it is usually C/F. In the USA it is D/G or G/C (I think).  For semitone-tuned boxes, in Scotland, the B/C or three row BCC# is common, in Ireland B/C or C#/D.

In the list of traditional styles which you mention, just about all of them can be played on a D/G instrument.

As for the number of rows, 3-row instruments are definitely larger and heavier than the 2-rows. One-row instruments are not recommended for beginners; they are rather specialist boxes and require a specific technique.

Go for the 2-row, as mentioned in the opening sentence.  Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

[nfldbox]

As to Canada, the "tradition" in the maritimes and Newfoundland varied. You'll see a lot of three row Rossis, Hohners of almost any sort, people hammering out very similar music on GCF or ADG boxes.  But today the people who are playing seriously are playing either one rows, almost always in D, or BC or C#D two rows.

[Medleyitis]

I extend my thanks to Steve and Nfldbox for weighing in with their helpful feedback. Steve, I'm located in Connecticut, USA, and to the best of my knowledge, there isn't much in the way of a social network for playing diatonics in my neck of the woods, aside from live music nights at Irish pubs in the region. Perhaps once I acquire one and begin learning how to play, I may find some kindred spirits to share the learning process with, but I have a feeling I'll be learning mostly on my own.

And judging by what I've viewed on YouTube so far, I am surprised at the large number of traditional melodeon/accordion players in the Maritimes! At least, compared to New England, anyway. I'm envious, Nfldbox!

In any event, it seems the consensus so far is leaning in favor of beginning on a 2-row. I'm grateful to one and all for your comments and suggestions. Thanks again.

[Chris Ryall]

Yup, start with a 2 row and follow your musical inclinations. The marker for second hand boxes is quite boyant and when you move on you may get 2/3 or so of what you paid.

3 rows are quite heavy and 3 rows with 3 voices particularly so.  That is to say a lot of a melodeon's weight is in the reeds. Against that if you learn to play a 3 row in enough keys you only need one box.

Not quite on topic, but ..D/G  or other key?  Well it depends who you play with but the standard British D/G has an important limitation in that the upper half od the keyboard is vary 'tinny' in sound. As a result most D/G carriers, myself included only use the lower end of the keyboard.

That's frankly a waste and (on my second G/C now) I've found use of the upper half, with dips to the lower for bass run effects really refreshing.  Against that most of the English repertoire has more awkward fingering.

.. so it depends what you want to do. On balance I'd say get a mid range D/G, experiment and progress. If you paly 'European' a C/G is more sensible and has that lovely tone in A minor.

[Steve_freereeder]

Steve, I'm located in Connecticut, USA, and to the best of my knowledge, there isn't much in the way of a social network for playing diatonics in my neck of the woods, aside from live music nights at Irish pubs in the region. Perhaps once I acquire one and begin learning how to play, I may find some kindred spirits to share the learning process with, but I have a feeling I'll be learning mostly on my own.

I've only been to New England once and that was a good few years ago, to the Marlborough Morris Ale in Vermont. But while I was there, I met with quite a few morris and other dance teams from Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York. So one route to find other melodeon players could be to contact some morris sides and see if you can get in touch with their musicians (who will almost certainly include melodeon players) and see what and where your local traditional music 'scene' is.

Another option is to contact an acquaintance of mine: Jody Kruskal. He is based in NYC and plays anglo concertina for dance teams and bands and will very likely know of melodeon players in your area. His contact details are on his website.
http://JodyKruskal.com

[Howard Jones]

You've just missed the North East Squeeze In held each year in Massachusetts:

http://www.buttonbox.com/s-i.html

I've no personal experience of it myself, as I'm in (old) England, but many people on concertina.net speak enthusiastically about it.  It seems to cater for all species of squeezeboxes.

[Medleyitis]

chrisryall: Thanks for your helpful feedback and particularly your tip on the sound of the D/G's upper half of the keyboard compared to a G/C. Interesting.

Steve: Thanks for weighing in again with more of your suggestions. I had no idea there is a Morris presence in VT, CT, MA, and NY. I'll have to look into that further.

Howard: Yes, I've read about the Squeeze In, which I've just missed. I guess I was under the mistaken impression it leaned heavily towards concertina. I too have heard good things about The Button Box, and have been planning a trip up there for a while now. I think it's only a couple of hours or so away, and I'm looking forward to checking out some models and configurations, hands-on.

Thanks again, everyone, for your continued helpful comments. Much obliged.

[ganderbox]

3 rows are quite heavy and 3 rows with 3 voices particularly so.  That is to say a lot of a melodeon's weight is in the reeds. Against that if you learn to play a 3 row in enough keys you only need one box.

Yes, I'm surprised nobody else mentioned the size/weight factor. Although there are a few fairly small 3 row boxes around, in general a 2 row is lighter and more manageable. It is also a lot easier on the brain to only have 2 rows of buttons (and 8 basses rather than 12) to think about.
The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are to enable you to play in more keys (which doesn't matter if you aren't playing much with other people) and/or to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).
 
I'd also agree with Chris that, if you don't need to worry too much about what keys other people are playing in, it makes more sense to get a G/C (or an A/D) where the whole keyboard is useable, even with a 2 voice box.

If you subsequently move on to a bigger box, you may still decide it is worth keeping a smaller one for the occasions when you don't want to be carrying a heavy box around.

[Medleyitis]

ganderbox: Thank you for your explanations in favor of a 2-row. As long as you brought up the bass keys, may I ask a follow-up question?

I've viewed the keyboard layout diagrams elsewhere on melodeon.net but am puzzled about something...

Why do the bass keys of a D/G box feature a C bass/C chord on both the push and pull, when there doesn't seem to be a way of playing in C on the push on the treble keys? (Similarly, on a G/C box, there is an F bass/F chord on both the push and pull.)

Why allow for a C bass/C chord (D/G box) and F bass/F Chord (G/C box) on the push? I don't seem to get it. Am I missing something that will only be apparent to me once I get my hands on one and play for myself?

Thanks again for your comments.

[Theo]

The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are ..... to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).

Actually I disagree fundamentally with this.  I started (self taught) playing up and down the rows, and found it quite hard to change to playing across the rows.  I don't believe its inherently more difficult, but its all to easy to get stuck with playing on the row and to see playing across the row as something terribly exotic, when its not.  When I teach beginners I have them playing across the row on the second tune I teach them (Britches full of Stitches in A  in a D/G box)

So to return to the topic I'd say yes start with a 3 row if its the box of choice for the style you particularly want to learn, otherwise go with a two row.

[ganderbox]

The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are ..... to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).

Actually I disagree fundamentally with this.  I started (self taught) playing up and down the rows, and found it quite hard to change to playing across the rows.  I don't believe its inherently more difficult, but its all to easy to get stuck with playing on the row and to see playing across the row as something terribly exotic, when its not.  When I teach beginners I have them playing across the row on the second tune I teach them (Britches full of Stitches in A  in a D/G box)

I didn't mean that a beginner shouldn't be crossrowing, but there are ample opportunities to do this on a 2 row box without the added complication of an extra row.
I'd say it's best to master the 2 row, (including playing in different keys and cross-rowing) then build on that with a 2.5 or 3 row.

Why do the bass keys of a D/G box feature a C bass/C chord on both the push and pull, when there doesn't seem to be a way of playing in C on the push on the treble keys? (Similarly, on a G/C box, there is an F bass/F chord on both the push and pull.)

Why allow for a C bass/C chord (D/G box) and F bass/F Chord (G/C box) on the push? I don't seem to get it. Am I missing something that will only be apparent to me once I get my hands on one and play for myself?

Has anybody got a good answer to this one? I must admit that I don't use that C bass on the push very much, at least not that I can think of.  You can use it if you are playing in C major (although mostly you need the one on the pull), and also to play in D minor, but I can't think of much else.

Some boxes, including clubs, have (in D/G terms) an F on the push instead of a C.

[LJC]

The way it see it the C gives you a nice drone you can use - because it doesn't really fit with all the notes you get a nice dissonance which automatically resolves its self when you hit a note which harmonises more pleasingly with C. The C chord (CEG) works over any of those notes - you have lots of G pushes where you can use it.

Prime example - play 'Rose Tree' in G (you need a low B to play it in the lower octave) and when it comes back to the G note in the 3rd bar hit the C on the push.

Also, where you have an F note on the push (often G row first button) it means you can use the C chord over the F note when playing in the key of C or Am (try it starting on the pull C or A on the G row), or just as a passing chord for any tunes which use the F as a chromatic note.

The push F chord on a DG can also be used to good effect with the club system as it gives you a Dm chord on the push with the D bass and F chord. Swings and roundabouts as with any melodeon layout.

[Bob Ellis]

The 2 main advantages of a 3 row are ..... to give you a selection of accidental notes and notes which play in the opposite direction to those on the main keyboard (not the sort of things which a beginner needs to be thinking too much about).

Actually I disagree fundamentally with this.  I started (self taught) playing up and down the rows, and found it quite hard to change to playing across the rows.  I don't believe its inherently more difficult, but its all to easy to get stuck with playing on the row and to see playing across the row as something terribly exotic, when its not.  When I teach beginners I have them playing across the row on the second tune I teach them (Britches full of Stitches in A  in a D/G box)

So to return to the topic I'd say yes start with a 3 row if its the box of choice for the style you particularly want to learn, otherwise go with a two row.

I agree with Theo on this. Having begun playing two-row boxes and having converted exclusively now to three-row boxes, I wish I had begun on a three-row. Although I played cross-row style from the start, the pattern of notes on the D and G rows became so deeply ingrained that when I transferred to three-row boxes it took me years to adjust to the patterns that would enable me to make adequate use of the third row.