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Author Topic: B/C 2-row for non-irish music  (Read 4263 times)

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uofdoboe

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B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« on: October 13, 2009, 10:22:00 PM »

Greetings from Stateside aspiring player!

Been contemplating taking the plunge into the melodeon world for a few weeks now; been doing tons of research on purchasing a decent beginning box.  I'm 90% confident in what to get (leaning towards a D/G Morgane) but the whole B/C vs D/G issue keeps rearing its ugly head in my mind.  From my reading, it seems like a topic people are strongly polarized about.

What I want to play: certainly not exclusively irish; english folk; scottish; american contradance; and I'm experiencing a temporary breton obsession.  Morris is unheard-of over here.  Not interested in tex-mex, German, eastern european, etc musics.  Having played melody instruments my whole life, the prospect of adding *gasp* harmony to my own playing excites me.  These considerations led me to focus on D/G instruments.

However... the reality of things is that session opportunities here are limited mostly to irish music.  While some have argued that you can technically play irish music on a D/G box, at least pitch-wise, others have countered that apart from exceptional players, the style will never be authentic.  How transferrable is a B/C box to other styles, or are these instruments confined solely to the irish tradition?  I also get the impression that picking up the opposite setup later in life will be setting myself up for a minor aneurysm?
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george garside

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 10:33:21 PM »

the BC is capable of doing everything the DG can do EXEPT half decent bass accompanyment  (that is assuming you are thinking of a normal 8 push /pull bass BC - If you find one with 12 stradella bass you have bass for keys of CGDA.)

The DG is limited on keys but has reasonable bass  & its ability to play 'authentic' (whatever that means) Irish music is down to the plaayer not the box.  If that were not the case it would be impossible to play said 'authentic' irish stuff on a 1 row box

So - if you want bass that can be used to good effect go for a DG, if you are willing to forfeit this in exchange for  being chromatic then a BC may preferable.

george
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EeeJay

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 11:34:58 PM »

As regards Irish box for non-Irish music...

Someone who springs to mind is the Franco/Irish box guru, Gilles Poutoux. He cut his teeth (like virtually all French melodeon players do) on G/C, but later fell into Irish music, and learnt the semitone system (and he plays a mean 1 row too 8))...

This, in turn, coloured his view of how/why the diatonic is used in French Trad music (which has a fair amount of parallell major/minor shifts, and other G/C unfriendly things)... so he started using the B/C in that context. Actually, he favours the C#/D (or is it the flipped row D/C# rig?) for this...

Gilles sees the instrument as primarily a vehicle for the melody, with the chords/bass less important... which transferrs a lot of Irish style 'melodic fluidity' into a new context. However, as with Irish music, the 2 row semitone tuned instrument comes into its own as part of an ensemble - or at least with an accompanying instrument ;)...

Anyhow... my advice as to what to get?

I can't really see a one box fix here...

As per Irish, a 2 voice C#/D is my initial advice. It's slightly more intuitive, and more self teachable, IMHO... That is, I'm assuming, there's not a lot of B/C box players local to teach? If so, B/C might be a better idea. Depending on budget something like a Dancemaster, souped-up Hohner, Irish Bouebe, Mengascini or similar will do the job...

Also, consider making room for a A/D/G Hohner Corona 2 (not 3). Coronas are fairly common Stateside (and good older used ones too). More versatile if you want to add harmony to a greater range of keys. Also (with outer A/D rows) gives a note layout a tone above a G/C - which is more suited for playing Breton tunes on.

Also with the Corona 2... reedblocks are commonal to each treble row... so if you can find a tuner, and feel the need to experiment, a potential modification could make a cheapish C#/D/G... especially so if you can get a spare C# reedblock and swap as and when the mood takes you...

Anyhow, that's a few ideas...

Ed J
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xgx

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 11:51:45 PM »

Gilles Poutoux. .......he plays a mean 1 row too 8))...

Thanks for the link Ed ... now I can get without me bass reed blocks ;-)

He has such an easy style... economy of bellows movement is, for me, a sure sign of a 'competent' player  ....and a joy to listen to whatever he plays  (:)
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Owen Woods

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 12:40:30 AM »

Then again, check out Tim Edey, who has done a sterling job of playing Irish music authentically on a D/G...

Music is what you make it, not the box, as has been correctly pointed out.
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xgx

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 12:51:25 AM »

enjoyed that too Bert but t'other fellah was just a little more..... my style ;D

Edey's a joy to listen too ... and gives something to aspire to, too  ;)
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Owen Woods

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 12:54:06 AM »

enjoyed that too Bert but t'other fellah was just a little more..... my style ;D

Oh he was absolutely superb I agree  ;D
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EeeJay

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 12:56:26 AM »

Then again, check out Tim Edey, who has done a sterling job of playing Irish music authentically on a D/G...

Yes, but not in D minor, F major, or G minor he doesn't. That's where the semitone system comes up trumps...

Music is what you make it, not the box, as has been correctly pointed out.

Hmm... I'd beg to differ...

Ed J
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 02:30:36 AM »

I think it might depend on how seriously you want to take Irish music. If the answer is not necessarily very seriously, then why not go with the D/G you're leaning towards. You'll be able to play just about anything that can be played on a D tin whistle or keyless flute by an average player, meaning you can join with more than a fair bit of the common session repertoire, and the D/G will be good for the other traditions you mention.

Hmm just thinking out loud here - some of the American contradance music being played and composed today may be a bit more adventurous, in which case a box that allows you to tackle a few more keys might be very handy. Depends I suppose who you see yourself playing with. Again, if you get pretty handy with the Irish music and fall in with a bunch of dedicated tune hounds, or just never want to be stumped for a note, a semitone box would be better.

If you do decide to go for a semitone box, I'd second Ed's suggestion of C#/D. (For some inexplicable reason Morganes are not available in C#/D at present.) You could think of the system as halfway between D/G and B/C. Maybe a third of the way there regarding basses, maybe, and a bit more than halfway for melody. I think it is easier to teach yourself than B/C (just as well as there are no teaching materials around) and certainly initially simpler for the keys of D, Em, A and Bm (in these keys, I would say, the B/C yields up its considerable possibilities a bit later in the learning curve). About evens with G. The B/C scores better on Dm, Gm and F and keys with flats in general. C#/D is also generally easier to play with a nice bounce in the sharp keys, again in the early stages. By the same token the B/C is easier to play with a smooth flow in the same keys in the early stages, if that's what you like more.

All desperately confusing... I sympathize with the dilemma. The important thing is to consider carefully who you might be playing with, how you might be learning (esp. who might be able to teach you), and what music you really want to get stuck into. Then make a choice... and don't look back!

Steve_freereeder

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 10:30:34 AM »

If you do decide to go for a semitone box, I'd second Ed's suggestion of C#/D. (For some inexplicable reason Morganes are not available in C#/D at present.) You could think of the system as halfway between D/G and B/C. Maybe a third of the way there regarding basses, maybe, and a bit more than halfway for melody.
Perhaps another way of looking at the C#/D is a one-row in D with a lot of accidentals. Or have I only just caught on with (in the immortal words of Basil Fawlty) 'the bleedin' obvious' ?
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 12:33:15 PM »

I think we need to give Dave Mallinson his due about Irish on a D/G. He recorded the Mally Series of Irish music (Slides, Reels, Slip Jigs, Polkas etc) all on a D/G. He played hundreds of tunes. At what point can you say it can't be done well?

I would never say Irish tunes can't be done well on a D/G*. What can't be done on it all is hundreds of _other_ Irish tunes, though.

* Although it can certainly be done very badly - and I've seen examples of that, courtesy of YouTube. Mind you I've seen it being massacred on C#/D and B/C on the same channel too!

stevejay

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 02:44:31 PM »

It seems like a lot of work to get all the notes Tim Edey gets in, his hand is RH isvery active.
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uofdoboe

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 02:53:25 PM »

Thanks for the feedback all, though I can't say it hasn't driven me deeper into uncertainty!

In my reading, I *had* seen C#/D/G boxes but had kind of passed them by due to (1) size, (2) price, and (3) a number of statements from supposedly experienced players who said it was either overly difficult to learn or didn't give as much "bang for the buck" for adding the 3rd row (something about only two complete scales on the push and none on the pull; excessive number of doubled notes but none on both push/pull... I'm speaking over my head here).  I had anticipated eventually wanting something beefier than a 2-row diatonic - like a 2.5 row - later on if this works out; I will have to keep the C#/D/G option in mind now.

In the meantime, I think I will proceed with the D/G - it sounds like it doesn't completely shut me out of any of the genres I'm interested in, it has prospects for chording which is a priority for me, and there's instructional material available since I live 2.5 hours from the nearest box player.  And I suppose it'll get me started *somewhere* and give me a feel for what I'm lacking.
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 03:04:30 PM »

It seems like a lot of work to get all the notes Tim Edey gets in, his RH is very active.

Welcome to Irish music. A lot of notes indeed!  (:)

Stiamh

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 06:36:48 PM »

Actually I meant the instrument forces a lot of activity. Usually I am amazed how "quiet" a professional's hand is, but not in the case of D/G on Irish. Just saying, I have nothing but respect for Mr. Edey's skills...

Well I don't think the fact that it's a D/G box has anything to do with it. The same performance on a C#/D or B/C would involve just as much moving around - indeed, possibly more on B/C, where (playing in D, as TE is) fewer consecutive notes fall on the same buttons than on a box with a D row.

What is making his hand tear up and down the keyboard so much partly is the range of the tune but primarily his interpretation of it.

There are a number of clips on YouTube of Irish music played on D/G boxes where the players' hands are much more static. I won't provide links because I think the playing is mainly pretty awful and I don't want to embarrass the proponents (none of whom are members here AFAIK), but you can find them.

stevejay

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 10:37:03 PM »

efficiency in motion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXCd_DC7FCQ

sorry way off topic, I just have huge respect for the banjo too :||:

Back on topic- I still think no wasted motion is a good thing to aspire to. I am no longer talking about anyone in particular, but I'm working on it for myself (:)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:42:03 PM by stevejay »
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Owen Woods

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 02:24:15 PM »

In the meantime, I think I will proceed with the D/G - it sounds like it doesn't completely shut me out of any of the genres I'm interested in, it has prospects for chording which is a priority for me, and there's instructional material available since I live 2.5 hours from the nearest box player.  And I suppose it'll get me started *somewhere* and give me a feel for what I'm lacking.

I think that's a good choice ;D
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stevejay

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Re: B/C 2-row for non-irish music
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2009, 03:31:34 PM »

I was happy I picked up a D/G for the reasons above. As you say, there are many options and styles to pick up on from recorded examples and tutorials.

And using the basses is so much fun, you'll learn to not use them sometimes. (:)
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