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Author Topic: Minor variations  (Read 4515 times)

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mikesamwild

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Minor variations
« on: October 29, 2009, 11:43:39 AM »

On the thread about Lovely Nancy I asked about tunes that come across as different when changed from major to minor or wrongly transcribed .

I find Princess Royal makes a nice tune in both modes as does Star of the County Down.

Any others?.

Shifting the dots on the stave is a much trickier method than flattening a few notes but interesting.

I find traditional singers, fiddlers, fluters and whistlers quite often do interesting things like this and put in notes between the notes that we box players can't do. G## is quite common.  maybe a pipe thing too.  Have we lost a lot by the development of  fixed note instruments
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 03:46:32 PM by mikesamwild »
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Mike in Sheffield

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Andy Simpson

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 11:18:54 PM »

Recently I heard Roger Watson playing a bloody good minor tune that sounded familiar but I couldn't quite place...it was Donkey Riding.  :o
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Lester

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2009, 07:36:03 AM »

Recently I heard Roger Watson playing a bloody good minor tune that sounded familiar but I couldn't quite place...it was Donkey Riding.  :o

Are you sure it was Donkey Riding and nt the Peat Fire Flame?

X: 1
T:Peat Fire Flame
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:Em
B | E>F G>F   | ED B2  | BA AG/A/ | BA AB |
    E>F G>F   | ED B>A | GE FD    | E2 E :|
z | G>A Bg/f/ | ed B2  | BA AG/A/ | BA AB |
    G>A Bg/f/ | ed B>A | GE FD    | E2 E :|]

Stiamh

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2009, 01:09:43 PM »

In Irish music there is an enormous grey area resulting from ambiguous thirds (e.g. flat or "just" F#s versus F naturals), modulated thirds or sevenths (e.g. alternating C#s and Cnats), and so on. In the case of the flattened major thirds, players of fixed pitch instruments such as accordions are forced to choose one equal-tempered note or the other, which leads to some strange morphings in the keys of tunes. In general, pure minor (Dorian) reinterpretations seem to be winning the war, pushing the more interesting (weirder and wilder) pipers' and fiddlers' settings out of the door - a great pity IMO.

For example, you will most often hear Paddy Fahy's jig played in G dorian, with a big fat Bb. But I have a recording of the elusive Fahy himself playing his composition, and while his Bs are very sweet they are definitely not Bb, giving the tune a much more major cast.

A well-established case is that of The Drunken Sailor (not the familiar song but a moody 4- or 5- part hornpipe popular with fiddlers), which is a G dorian version of The Groves (Gmaj). They had diverged to become two separate tunes by the end of the 19th century, since both (unless I am losing my marbles, and being too lazy to go looking for the book) appear in O'Neill's Dance Music of Ireland.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:11:30 PM by Steve Jones »
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Keithypete.

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2009, 01:34:11 PM »

Recently I heard Roger Watson playing a bloody good minor tune that sounded familiar but I couldn't quite place...it was Donkey Riding.  :o

Are you sure it was Donkey Riding and nt the Peat Fire Flame?

X: 1
T:Peat Fire Flame
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:Em
B | E>F G>F   | ED B2  | BA AG/A/ | BA AB |
    E>F G>F   | ED B>A | GE FD    | E2 E :|
z | G>A Bg/f/ | ed B2  | BA AG/A/ | BA AB |
    G>A Bg/f/ | ed B>A | GE FD    | E2 E :|]



At a local session they Peat fire flame, Tralee Gaol, then Donkey riding with the words but bizarrely using the last two bars of P.F.F., to really confuse things.
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Andy Simpson

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2009, 03:19:31 PM »

Recently I heard Roger Watson playing a bloody good minor tune that sounded familiar but I couldn't quite place...it was Donkey Riding.  :o

Are you sure it was Donkey Riding and nt the Peat Fire Flame?



He definitely said it was Donkey Riding.
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mikesamwild

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2009, 03:50:53 PM »

In a minor key it could be like a Spanish tune Donkey Crushing.  Just played it and it does sound like Donkey Riding twiddled. Nice one
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 03:58:44 PM by mikesamwild »
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Mike in Sheffield

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Gandy

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2009, 05:28:06 PM »

Not major to minor, but I like the transition in Bacca Pipes where the third variant changes from Am with one sharp (Morris Minor?) into A something else (two sharps).
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Tony S

juker

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2009, 08:07:30 PM »

How do you change a tune to a minor key? I can read music and understand the basics of transposing but don't remember this (if I ever learned it, it was a long time ago!)

Thanks Chris  (:)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 10:49:07 AM by juker »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2009, 09:50:49 PM »

The 'same root' (examples will be in G) way to go minor is to flatten the third note of its scale  

   G A {B->Bb} C, D E F# G.

I've put that comma after the C on purpose. The first 4 notes won't change. The fun come in the top 4 notes. As things stand the D E  F#G are still as per major scale. This is perfectly legal, called "melodic minor" - common in jazz and modern music

Western "folk" minors are nearly always relative modes of another major scale (eg use a simple flute, but start on a different note N holes up for your tune). The common "G" minor is the one built on the F scale ..
 
   G A Bb C, D E F G  "Dorian mode" with 6th=E 'natural'

some European and church music used an even softer minor (build on the Bb scale)

  G A Bb C, D Eb F G  "Aolian mode" with 6th=E 'flat'G A Bb C, D Eb F# G  "Harmonic minor"All of these are legal - but only one is kosher  ;)  Note the bottom four notes haven't changed. If you want to keep in "G" these are the basic scales (without going oriental).   A musician can slip from eg Aolian to harmonic and back - and no one notices.  What works fluently on your melodeon depends on three issues.  

1. What accidentals you have in right direction for that critical Bb, and the Eb and F 'colour' notes
2. Can you take the 3rds out of your bass - if not - minor v major chords = disaster :o
3. How much courage you have - generally no one in a session will join in Gm tunes


The other way to 'go minor' - and almost ubiquitous on the basic 2 row is to move into one of its 'relative' minors. From  G that is usually Em. Nearly all boxes give you the suitable chord. But you won't be in G any more, but in E (minor).  This too is legal and sounds fine. I believe it's what God intended us to do on a 2 row. And as a committed non believer, that's why I got another row  8)

STP in G major goes G,A,B,C ..  against the G push chord
      in E minor it goes E,F#,G,A .. against the Em pull chord

go for it


Bacca pipes? The two parts are in Am and G using the same G scale notes That is to say using Am as a relative minor mode of G.  F# isn't used at all in the first half and we tend to hear the tune as 'soft' Am.  Then the change to a G bass and a major mode, and use of F# in the B part comes as a shock, your brain had assumed F natural but it wasn't. Lovely.  You can accent the brightness of the B bit by playing it over a C drone (nuff said)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 10:07:13 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Fidjit

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2009, 08:48:15 AM »





Bacca pipes? The two parts are in Am and G using the same G scale notes That is to say using Am as a relative minor mode of G.  F# isn't used at all in the first half and we tend to hear the tune as 'soft' Am.  Then the change to a G bass and a major mode, and use of F# in the B part comes as a shock, your brain had assumed F natural but it wasn't. Lovely.  You can accent the brightness of the B bit by playing it over a C drone (nuff said)

Ah ! We are doing Bacca Pipes at Witney in two weeks.  Now I thought it was easier to play it on the D row and save crossing over. Hmm! Have to wait until Saturday to get it right. :|bl
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Gandy

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2009, 10:02:21 AM »

Bacca pipes? The two parts are in Am and G using the same G scale notes That is to say using Am as a relative minor mode of G.  F# isn't used at all in the first half and we tend to hear the tune as 'soft' Am.  Then the change to a G bass and a major mode, and use of F# in the B part comes as a shock, your brain had assumed F natural but it wasn't. Lovely.  You can accent the brightness of the B bit by playing it over a C drone (nuff said)

Doubtless there are zillions of versions, I learned mine by ear but it is similar to the version shown here, where the third variation plays C#s, returning to C naturals for the final figures.

http://www.themorrisring.org/more/Tunes/abc/Headington.abc
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Tony S

Chris Ryall

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 10:35:51 AM »

Doubtless there are zillions of versions, I learned mine by ear but it is similar to the version shown here, where the third variation plays C#s, returning to C naturals for the final figures.

Thanks. The Newcastle morris team I once danced with did 'Bacca', but when I was with Mersey playing, they didn't. I'd totally forgotten any C music (apologies as you did say third part)!

Yup, that's another modal shift into the pull mode of D=A myxolydian (hence D row).  Even prettier, and even closer to the major-minor switch we started with.   Amin dorian (G scale 1# start on A) => Amaj myxolydian (D scale 2#s, start on A).

I see Tim van Eyken in his Witney notes scores it all in G, C# as an accidental, but I don't think that C# is in any way an accident. It forces you from modes of G into modes of D. Both work notation wise, but one reflects a structural change in the tune.  

Sorry I see no sense in scoring a line of music in G, and then playing every single C in it as a C# ???
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 05:28:59 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Fidjit

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2009, 03:52:41 PM »

Ah. So I'm not doing anything wrong yet then :Ph

What a strange machine this Melodeon is. You can do this. :||: or  :|||:

Think I'll have a  :|glug now.
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Gandy

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2009, 04:54:58 PM »

... I see Tim scores it all in G  .....

I gotta ask .. who's Tim?   But I agree about the key signature,  .. the notation I found online changed to two sharps in the key signature.   To give you a laugh, I've just looked it up in Bacon and there its written with three sharps in the key signature, and all the Gs marked as naturals.
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Tony S

Chris Ryall

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2009, 05:35:16 PM »

Plenty of ways to kill this particular cat. I prefer the modal concept because to my that's what most of our common tunes are about.

I sense fidjit doesn't. Fair do's. If you want to improvise then knowing what the modes are doing is a big help. Has anyone ever done this to Bacca pipes? Maybe not - but I'd bet a lot it started simpler and the '3rd bit' was developed.

.. or you could say that some old musician took it from a minor into a major.  Think I'll join you  :|glug
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Sandy

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2009, 05:45:14 PM »

Jees ! Think I really need to learn my scales. I've wondered for ages why one of the minor scales was called melodic..doh  :|glug

Keep the information coming please but not too fast  ;D

Cheers

Sandy
 (:)

Fidjit

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2009, 06:13:56 PM »

Plenty of ways to kill this particular cat. I prefer the modal concept because to my that's what most of our common tunes are about.

I sense fidjit doesn't. Fair do's. If you want to improvise then knowing what the modes are doing is a big help. Has anyone ever done this to Bacca pipes? Maybe not - but I'd bet a lot it started simpler and the '3rd bit' was developed.

.. or you could say that some old musician took it from a minor into a major.  Think I'll join you  :|glug

Tell you what Chris. I don't know what I sence to be honest.
I just hit the buttons. Don't know what they are called. If it sounds right then it ain't broke. ;D

Mines :|glug An Abbots. What's yours?
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ladydetemps

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 11:24:04 AM »

Im as bemused as you Chas. Lol!

Fidjit

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Re: Minor variations
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2009, 07:11:36 PM »

... I see Tim scores it all in G  .....

I gotta ask .. who's Tim?   But I agree about the key signature,  .. the notation I found online changed to two sharps in the key signature.   To give you a laugh, I've just looked it up in Bacon and there its written with three sharps in the key signature, and all the Gs marked as naturals.

Tim in question is Tim van Eyken Who is teaching Bacca Pipes at Witney in 2 weeks time.
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