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Author Topic: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?  (Read 8222 times)

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mikesamwild

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Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« on: November 14, 2009, 06:38:01 PM »

I know it makes sense if you have to use a letter to start on, although everyone seems to start teaching from C and that is the one with no sharps or flats. !
I've also asked this (to me) perplexing question on concertina.net.
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10298


Any illumination from the illuminati would be welcome

My little Grandaughter asked me why the scale didn't go CDEFGHIc when I showed it her on the piano!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 02:55:23 PM by mikesamwild »
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Mike in Sheffield

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NeilA

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 10:58:10 PM »

I thought it didn't matter as long as you were playing in the home scales on a diatonic instrument? Playing D or G on a D/G would be the same as C  on a C - if you know what I mean?
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Ollie

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 11:28:45 PM »

Because that is the home key for many instruments. However, when I started playing the trombone, the first scale I learnt was Bb major, as the home key for the 'bone is Bb. I think it is more of a case that you start by learning the easiest scale possible on your particular instrument, it just happens that for many instruments, the easiest scale is C (mainly because it has no sharps or flats!)
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 11:32:48 PM »

Mike - as ever you have the answer! "C" is used simply because it has no sharps or flats, which makes it easier for a beginner to read from the page. It's also almost exactly halfway up the piano, and for that instrument, you only need to worry about hitting the white keys. Why do you think the PA has a piano keyboard!  :||: :|glug

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GbH

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 11:40:07 PM »

As ever, I think that Wikipedia hints at the answer that you're looking for.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note, in the History Of Note Names section.

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TomB-R

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 11:47:45 PM »

Interesting GbH but still doesn't seem to answer the question, "why start on C"

Or have we been wrong all this time, and A Minor is actually the fundamental scale?
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Simon

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 10:42:56 AM »

I don't remember the details, but I think they just used A for the lowest note used at the time (until they added the gamma for the note below). A piano keyboard also starts on A.
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ganderbox

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 10:53:22 AM »

From reading the Wikipedia article, it looks as if, at the time letters were first allocated to the notes of the scale, there were just 2 octaves in use. A was given to the lowest note, and the next 14 letters of the alphabet were used to denote the remainder of the 2 octaves. Later this was changed so that only the 7 letters from A to G were used, repeating them for the higher octaves.
Because many tunes have notes in them which are lower than the first note of the scale in which they are written, the fundamental scale (in which presumably most tunes were sung or played) would be higher than A.
In countries that use Do Re Mi etc to name the notes of the scale, Do is equivalent to C. The article says that these names came from the first syllables of the musical phrases of a Gregorian chant. If you follow the link to the chant, it is actually written in D minor, and C is just the leading note. Maybe if D minor was popular, it explains why B abd Bb were the first "accidentals" to be added.

This is just my understanding of the article...don't know if it's correct!  

As Tom BR suggests, maybe the use of C as the fundamental scale is something to do with the fact that early music was generally in minor keys, whilst modern music is generally in major keys.


ps  Simon posted (much more concisely) while I was writing this.
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nemethmik

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 11:46:07 AM »

In countries that use Do Re Mi etc to name the notes of the scale, Do is equivalent to C.
This is true for France. In Hungary. DO (being a relative note) could mean any absolute note.
For example, in an A major scale DO = A. In a G major scale DO = G. In an A mixolydian scale DO = D.
Miki
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 09:53:51 PM by Miklos Nemeth »
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Simon

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 05:44:52 PM »

In countries that use Do Re Mi etc to name the notes of the scale, Do is equivalent to C.
This is true for France. In Russia and Hungary. 
Called 'fixed do'; see also wikipedia.
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mikesamwild

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2009, 05:51:29 PM »

I like the keyboard starting on A at the LHS thing (I've never noticed and don't now have one ), but my son has just confirmed it on the phone.  As a kid I messed about on an old piano in our parlour.  I kept to the white notes  and 'hunted and pecked' till I got a nice Do-Re-Mi scale all on the white notes that would from C near the keyhole as I remember.
I found it interesting in the Wikipedia article about the fact that the black notes on the piano scale came gradually and later.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 08:33:31 PM by mikesamwild »
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Mike in Sheffield

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Simon

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2009, 07:11:38 PM »

I like the keyboard starting on A at the LHS thing
It's not the reason for the 'starting with A' though; piano's are from much later than the note names. Perhaps it does show that the lowest note in use isn't always the root of the scale, even though you can play in any key on a piano. On a full score (treble and bass clef as for piano) the note on the bottom line is a G (the already mentioned gamma or gamut). The next one is the first A. I think this standard music notation was related to the note naming, but I forgot where I read all this stuff.  :-[
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ganderbox

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2009, 09:30:40 PM »

Or have we been wrong all this time, and A Minor is actually the fundamental scale?

Probably correct. The answer almost certainly involves modes.

I seem to remember from Howard Goodall's excellent television programmes some time ago that back in the 7th century or so, formal music was primarily for use in church, and only minor scales were used. Major scales  were seen as being inappropriate as they were too "jolly", and encouraged merriment rather than devout contemplation .
The scale which started on A (the first note) would therefore be A minor, and the notes in that scale became the "white notes".
When music became more secular, it started to be written in major keys. The major scale which used all the "white notes" would be C (the relative major of A minor).

Does that make sense?   
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Pauline from Cornwall

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nemethmik

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2009, 09:55:37 PM »

Does that make sense?   
Yes. Thank You! Miki
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 08:21:25 AM »

Early music was a big mix it seems, with different countries and different instuments going off in their own directions. I think it's a diversion  >:E to bring in the transposing instruments such as clarinet and sax. Their 'C' might be our Bb or Eb.  So I'll not mention them except to say this underlines the power of 'C' as the anchor note of musical notation.

We know the stave came from plain chant and I was thinking along the 'this as usually Am' lines too. So that perhaps that explains ABCDEFG

To my mind the power of 'C' comes from the harpsichord, and more especially its successor the immensely popular piano.  Once that had been invented, was fully chromatic, and happened to have the diatonic C major scale in a special colour I guess music theorists breathed a sigh of relief and found they at last had common ground. But it remains rather arbitrary - and begs the question as to why those harpsichord makers picked C a couple of centuries earlier. Or were they building with the A (aolian) minor scale in mind - the two are completely equivalent on an even tempered instrument.

So it begs another question  -as to why that wwhwwwh (half/whole tone increments) Ionian mode was chosen as basis. I'd guess that it's bacause 'to the ear' it is the 'least coloured' - no minor, blue or over bright notes. anyone know?  Again there may be a clue in that aolian (white notes) Am is regarded as the 'least coloured' of the various minor scales.

[edit] whoops - see ganderbox has already alluded to this sort of thing. Acknowledge all said there (also simon).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 08:25:25 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Simon

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 08:21:59 AM »

Does that make sense?   
It's based on a system where the 15 notes in use were numbered a through o. Not sure why they used those 15 notes. It could be because of the minor scale, but that assumes that the lowest note in use was the root of the scale. If I only had two octaves and wanted to play C major I'd probably want a G for the lowest note. (Actually they did add the G below the lowest A.)
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Simon

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 09:02:21 AM »

Found some links again: dolmetsch, history, and Guido d'Arezzo. Seems like it's more based on hexachords than on major or minor scales, which were 'invented' long after note naming and staff notation.
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2009, 10:40:43 AM »

To my mind the power of 'C' comes from the harpsichord, and more especially its successor the immensely popular piano.  Once that had been invented, was fully chromatic, and happened to have the diatonic C major scale in a special colour I guess music theorists breathed a sigh of relief and found they at last had common ground. But it remains rather arbitrary - and begs the question as to why those harpsichord makers picked C a couple of centuries earlier.

Chris: Wouldn't the organ be a more likely basis if our origin is in Church music? The harpsichord is moore of a chamber instrument and the organ is also older in origin. Just a thought.

Chris B.
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I'm a Yorkie!
My other melodeon's a fiddle, but one of my Hohners has six strings! I also play a very red Hawkins Bazaar in C and a generic Klingenthaler spoon bass in F.!! My other pets (played) are gobirons - Hohner Marine Band in C, Hohner Tremolo in D and a Chinese Thingy Tremolo in G.

mikesamwild

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2009, 12:06:50 PM »

Thanks ganderbox that sounds good to me. Guido lettered his scale from A which was Do (or Ut as it was also known)
 I've just mentioned on conc.net a little singing experiment I did from low A.


Actually one and a half octaves from a low G# suited me better and I do a lot of singing.  The 'A' would be lower in olden time in frequency

I also found the A aeolian scale nicer than A with the 3 sharps.


By the way in Beverley Minster there is one carving with an angel playing a portative organ

http://www.annandave.org/organ%202.JPG

 Maybe they were tuned to fit in with the chants   Nice one here 9 pipes doubled up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oS-1Jto4x0&feature=related  Seems to be a Dminor tune on a  DA drone

These must have been the squeezeboxes of the day before the free reed hit Europe in the 1700s
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 06:28:03 PM by mikesamwild »
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Mike in Sheffield

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mikesamwild

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Re: Why is the commonest major scale started on C not A?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 01:27:21 PM »

Does that make sense?   
It's based on a system where the 15 notes in use were numbered a through o. Not sure why they used those 15 notes. It could be because of the minor scale, but that assumes that the lowest note in use was the root of the scale. If I only had two octaves and wanted to play C major I'd probably want a G for the lowest note. (Actually they did add the G below the lowest A.)



I understand that they called it the Gamut from that initial GA etc
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Mike in Sheffield

If music be the food of love -who finds the time?
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