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Author Topic: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices  (Read 12668 times)

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hickory-wind

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2018, 07:52:51 PM »

This Hohner L'Organola Deluxe is 4 voice (LLMM I believe) and has a mini stradella bass. It is in BC.

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Andrius

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2018, 09:21:45 PM »

Here is a pair of very similar boxes but these are both 3 voice LMM with three switches. This gives any combination of reeds including none. Build quality is excellent.

Scott [...]

The red one looks exactly like my "pre-Morino".
three switches including none too - M, L, MM and one switch for helicon basses.
Can not understand reason of poor sound  :(
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Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

pgroff

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2018, 09:28:02 PM »

All very interesting - thanks, hickory-wind and Andrius for the great photos of these other models!  I think comparisons among different Hohner models are often illuminating.

But if we discuss in this thread all the different models of *3 voice* Hohner pre-war clubs (of which there are many!), or 4-voice Hohner accordion models that *aren't clubs* (e.g. that cool L'Organola), then people looking for that information may not be able to find it by searching the topic title.

PG
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 09:30:49 PM by pgroff »
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Andrius

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2018, 05:16:28 PM »

234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices  (:)
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Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

pgroff

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2018, 05:38:56 PM »

Here is a pair of very similar boxes but these are both 3 voice LMM with three switches. This gives any combination of reeds including none. Build quality is excellent.

Scott [...]

The red one looks exactly like my "pre-Morino".
three switches including none too - M, L, MM and one switch for helicon basses.
Can not understand reason of poor sound  :(

Hi Andrius,

Sorry, I misread your post - because you didn't list "LMMM" as among the options I thought you had one of the many versions of LMM box, like hickory-wind

Best,

PG
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2018, 05:44:50 PM »

Here is a pair of very similar boxes but these are both 3 voice LMM with three switches. This gives any combination of reeds including none. Build quality is excellent.

Scott [...]

The red one looks exactly like my "pre-Morino".
three switches including none too - M, L, MM and one switch for helicon basses.
Can not understand reason of poor sound  :(

I don't know the reason for the poor sound, but I'd guess this may be a "235" model variant if it has 4 sets of reeds. If 5 sets of reeds, then a 255 perhaps.

IMO the boxes with celluloid grille have a slightly more mellow tone quality than the ones with the all-metal (plated brass) grille.

Possible things to check could include
* the fit of the reedblock to the soundboard - these must fit perfectly, evenly along their length, and not too tightly.
* the sliders
* the condition of the reed-tongues and reed-leathers (and gaskets/pins or wax that attach reedplate)
* the tuning

PG
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 05:49:43 PM by pgroff »
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Andrius

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2018, 07:57:08 PM »

I bought this accordeon because of reeds "Hohner Germany", with idea to use them in another accordion.
When I got it bass side made big impression, so i decided to restore it (right side was a little out of tune).
It was tuned, all original leather valves were taked out, softened and glued back (helps in lot of old accordions).
So everything seems to be OK except the sound  :(
I don't know what to do now. I don't need so heavy box without nice sound. And I am not sure about transfering reeds to another box.
May be the body of this accordion is not sounding?
No other ideas.
Or these reeds are not so good...
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Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

Theo

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2018, 08:01:30 PM »

Did you tune the reeds?
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2018, 08:30:00 PM »

Reeds (not all but only not-in-tune) were tuned in reed blocks with manual file
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Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2018, 08:39:20 PM »

Maybe the tuning could be better??? I don’t know, have you had better results tuning other instruments? 

Perhaps also the old valves are not as good as new ones would be?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 08:48:34 AM by Theo »
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2018, 10:05:39 PM »

I am tuning only a little and only for myself. It takes too long for me to do it for money. My problems are perfectionism and lack of time, so lot of my instruments are tuned not by me but by (I think) the best craftsman in Lithuania (only one in Lithuania who can tune in non-equal tuning like old Hohners), but all my bandoneons are tuned by me.
Lot of my instruments are with well softened old leather valves - I am not fast to change them to plastic. I believe it can be some difference but not essential.
All my boxes with O, T, H or Koch reeds, leather or plastic valves sounds better at the moment.  :'(
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Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

pgroff

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2018, 12:47:51 AM »

Hi Andrius,

OK then: I suggest that you transplant a few of those reeds into another box, and transplant a few other "good sounding" reeds into your fancy 1930s box, to see whether it is those reeds or the box that is causing the problem you perceive.

But even if you find the problem is with your "HOHNER GERMANY" reeds, it could reflect the current condition of those reeds (and their history of treatment over the past 80 years) rather than their original quality.

I like the "HOHNER GERMANY" reeds. When in good condition and in a good box they are great IMO (responsive and with a beautiful tone quality)! I have seen a few cases where several of these reeds are broken in the same accordion, possibly a higher percentage of broken reeds than with other Hohner reeds, so possibly the steel of the tongues is more brittle than other types of reeds (just a speculation).

PG
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 12:50:25 AM by pgroff »
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Theo

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2018, 08:19:08 AM »

I’ve also noticed a higher incidence of breakage with Made in Germany reeds.  I can’t tell if the steel is more brittle, but the reed profile is certainly thinner than Hohner T reeds, which might make them more proud be to break.
I’ve also noticed that not at Made in Germany reeds are the same. The best ones are length ground,  whereas standard reeds are ground across. This is something you can easily see and f you look at the surface of the reed tongue.
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2018, 08:43:38 AM »

Maybe the bing could be better???

I can usually decipher Theo's mobile phone's quirky predictive text but I have to admit this one has me puzzled.
I happen to know that 'bing' is Midland Valley Scots-English terminology for a coal-mine waste tip, but I don't think that definition works here. ;)
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM »

Corrected to”tuning”
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2018, 09:03:49 AM »

Returning to the thread....  (:)

I am tuning only a little and only for myself. It takes too long for me to do it for money. My problems are perfectionism and lack of time, so lot of my instruments are tuned not by me but by (I think) the best craftsman in Lithuania (only one in Lithuania who can tune in non-equal tuning like old Hohners), but all my bandoneons are tuned by me.

I would be very interested to learn more about this "non-equal tuning like old Hohners". Were the old Hohners (1930s, etc.) tuned in, say, 1/4-comma meantone or similar? What were/are the offsets from Equal Temperament? Can you enlighten me please, Andrius, or anyone. Thanks!
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2018, 10:46:29 AM »

Hi Andrius,

OK then: I suggest that you transplant a few of those reeds into another box, and transplant a few other "good sounding" reeds into your fancy 1930s box, to see whether it is those reeds or the box that is causing the problem you perceive.

[...]

I like the "HOHNER GERMANY" reeds. When in good condition and in a good box they are great IMO (responsive and with a beautiful tone quality)!  [...]

PG

I can try next week when I will be back home. Reeds are very high sensitivity (I like it) but quite silent (too silent to enjoy accordion). Hard to say something about tone quality when sad about loudness...

I’ve also noticed a higher incidence of breakage with Made in Germany reeds.  I can’t tell if the steel is more brittle, but the reed profile is certainly thinner than Hohner T reeds, which might make them more proud be to break.
I’ve also noticed that not at Made in Germany reeds are the same. The best ones are length ground,  whereas standard reeds are ground across. This is something you can easily see and f you look at the surface of the reed tongue.

any was broken. Length or across ground - can look next week.

[...]
I would be very interested to learn more about this "non-equal tuning like old Hohners". Were the old Hohners (1930s, etc.) tuned in, say, 1/4-comma meantone or similar? What were/are the offsets from Equal Temperament? Can you enlighten me please, Andrius, or anyone. Thanks!

Non-equal tuned melodeons sounds more lovely. Lot of pre-war Hohners (most important part of my instruments) were [factory?] tuned in this way Main idea is to lower some sounds from "well tempered" keys. It can be used in melodeons only - not in PA or full scale button accordions or bandoneons that must be tuned in tempered key.
Easy level - 3, 6 and 7 tones (mi, la and ti[si] in C key) are a little lowered; Do+mi+sol in tempered key not sounds so sweet like with lowered mi; the same for do+mi and mi+sol. Other two lowered tones are for dominant and sub-dominant chords.
BTW in old Hohners sometimes lowered tones are only in low octave, so octaves are not in tune...
More complicated level - to tune nice fifths too (lowered V); have not seen any instrument factory tuned this way. It is kind of tuning like pipe-organ with one forbidden interval; it is possible to tune 2 row melodeon almost perfect
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Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

pgroff

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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2018, 12:40:10 PM »


[...]
I would be very interested to learn more about this "non-equal tuning like old Hohners". Were the old Hohners (1930s, etc.) tuned in, say, 1/4-comma meantone or similar? What were/are the offsets from Equal Temperament? Can you enlighten me please, Andrius, or anyone. Thanks!

Non-equal tuned melodeons sounds more lovely. Lot of pre-war Hohners (most important part of my instruments) were [factory?] tuned in this way Main idea is to lower some sounds from "well tempered" keys. It can be used in melodeons only - not in PA or full scale button accordions or bandoneons that must be tuned in tempered key.
Easy level - 3, 6 and 7 tones (mi, la and ti[si] in C key) are a little lowered; Do+mi+sol in tempered key not sounds so sweet like with lowered mi; the same for do+mi and mi+sol. Other two lowered tones are for dominant and sub-dominant chords.
BTW in old Hohners sometimes lowered tones are only in low octave, so octaves are not in tune...
More complicated level - to tune nice fifths too (lowered V); have not seen any instrument factory tuned this way. It is kind of tuning like pipe-organ with one forbidden interval; it is possible to tune 2 row melodeon almost perfect

Steve-freereeder,

No, I don't think any of the pre-war Hohners were in a typical meantone temperament but some modern tuners have used this.  I think that 1/4 comma in particular isn't ideal for diatonic accordions unless you are trying to match another instrument that is using that tuning. For most diatonic accordions you don't have to narrow the fifths that much to obtain very sweet thirds on the important playable intervals. But no reason not to use 1/4 comma (or 1/5 comma etc) if you like the sound!

Andrius,

I agree with much of what you wrote!  This is based on study of many "most original" Hohner instruments that I have sought out that seem to have retained much of their original tuning (i.e. instruments that were seemingly never serviced or even opened since the factory, were played little, and whose reeds show no rust to the tongues or corrosion to the reedplates; sometimes even the reedleathers are still functional; due to social and climatic factors we may be more likely to find pre-war Hohners in this condition in North America than in Britain or Ireland).  Some Hohners from this pre-WW2 period were tuned in equal temperament, some were just not very well tuned at all, but many of the diatonic boxes were tuned to very precise non-equal temperaments designed to optimize certain intervals. I think it's incorrect to call the entire instrument or even the scale for one diatonic row "just tuned" but I'm a stickler about that. However, some intervals do approach "just" tuning. In the two-and three-row boxes you will often see that the same named note when found on different rows and/or different bellows directions is assigned a different pitch.

One possible minor disagreement with Andrius' statements (if I understand you correctly): in my experience, when a box is properly tuned in this way, the octaves *along the same button row and in the same bellows direction* are well in tune, allowing for a different beat frequency of the tremelo or musette. However, octave notes chosen between different button rows and/or different bellows directions may be different in the "center / target perceived pitch."

A corollary of this tuning is that there are more than 12 pitches used per octave, and to make the most of this tuning the player has to chose certain bellows directions for some intervals, and avoid other bellows directions even if the notes would "spell the same" i.e. G-B.  This doesn't require complicated intellectual study, it's mainly that the tuning favors the simplest ways of playing a box by ear - but it does mean that if you try to be clever about substitute fingerings you may produce some ugly wolf intervals.

Finally, some of the basic intervals playable along a single button row (for example, the major third F- A on the draw of a C row) seem to have been intentionally (and unnecessarily!) tuned very far from "just" in many German diatonic accordions and concertinas. This is a sound that they seemed to want. It's a sound that's counter to my own musical preferences but I do recognize it as authentic and flavorful in its own way. But this feature of the tuning scheme is one reason that I object to naming the entire tuning scheme as "just intonation." I'm an outlier on this technical point of usage, arguing against many professional musicologists who write about tunings, but I'll always be happy to present the evidence that I'm correct and they are wrong. :)

PG

« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 01:45:19 PM by pgroff »
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Re: Hohner Modell 234, 235, 255 and other prewar clubs with 4 (+) voices
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2018, 02:59:51 PM »

Thanks Paul and Andrius for your replies.

I must admit I am slightly surprised by the notion of lowering the pitch of the fifths in order to make the thirds sound in tune. This doesn't seem right to my accustomed way of thinking. The interval of a fifth is too narrow in ET. It needs to be sharpened by about 2 cents to obtain a beatless interval. Similarly, a major third is too wide in ET and sounds sweetest when about 15 cents flat from ET. I don't see how those sorts of 'in-tuneness' are achieved by making the fifths even narrower. But I may be misunderstanding your explanations here.

Maybe one thing which comes out of this is that what we mean by 'in tune' is different for different people. I don't mean people who are not able to distinguish pitch accurately; it's more of a cultural 'what we've grown accustomed to hearing' thing, and has changed over the centuries since Bach's time. In general western music, we are far more accepting of the overall slight dissonances of ET than perhaps people were in the past.
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