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Author Topic: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band  (Read 6815 times)

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pgroff

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Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« on: December 22, 2009, 01:40:42 PM »

Hi all,

There was a great thread on this forum recently about the music and influence of Sonny Brogan. Possibly some who contribute here can tell us more about Tom Liddy, another great player.

I don't know much about him myself. I think he was a Leitrim man who lived and worked in or near Dublin, and became known across Ireland with the 78 recordings of the Belhavel Trio. That group included himself, his brother Joe on fiddle, and Ned O'Gorman playing the chanter of the Irish pipes.

I love the music on those recordings.  I remember back in the 1980s, piper Peter Heelan and fiddler John Sherry sat me down to hear them (probably in their reissue on the 33 RPM LP, Irish Dance Music, edited by Reg Hall). I could tell that the Belhavel Trio was an important point of reference for Peter and John when they played with Sabra Daly, a lovely accordion and concertina player, and a sound that they wanted in mind when we played together.  I finally found a copy of that out-of-print LP so I could hear the music again and again, and then some of the tracks were reissued on the CD version of that compilation by Topic.

As Reg Hall noted in his liner notes, on those 78 recordings Tommy had a low octave reed sounding from the accordion, and along with the strong, sparingly ornamented unison playing of the fiddle and chanter it projects the rhythm very powerfully. I imagine the recording technology plays a part too in how we hear that music, but there is something about unison playing with doubled octaves that seems to carry a lot of heart (assuming of course that the strong dance rhythm is there which of course it is with these musicians). I wasn't surprised to hear Michael Tubridy list the Belhavel Trio  78s among those that once belonged to Mrs. Crotty, the inspirational concertina player from Kilrush. I can well imagine that a musician who made such perfect rhythms and phrases with a round-toned Lachenal concertina played powerfully (and often in octaves) would have an ear for the Belhavel Trio.

Tommy's brother Joe seems much better known, as a composer whose many tunes have been played widely and published.

But what can we find out about Tommy and his music? What instrument did he use to record those 78s? According to Reg Hall, he spent time in the US in the late 1920s, so I suppose it's possible he could have brought a Baldoni across! The picture of the Kincora Band that is included in the Topic cd seems to show Tommy with a 1930s 3 voice Hohner. Tommy is reported to have played a D/D# box, "outside-in," but have any of his instruments been preserved by the family?

And what other box players did Tommy teach or influence?

Thanks for any leads,

Paul Groff
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pgroff

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 07:21:11 PM »

Hi all,

Here are a couple links for those unfamiliar with the recordings I mentioned.

First, Here is the Topic cd, Irish Dance Music:

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Dance-Music-Various-Artists/dp/B00000591M

And here are available mp3s of two other recordings by the Belhavel Trio:

http://www.juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToIrishDance.htm

PG
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Stiamh

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 01:31:27 PM »

I know nothing about Tommy Liddy, Paul, but thanks for posting those links. The Belhavel Trio clips are great - no piano driver in sight, phew - but I also enjoyed the rest of them.

I was particularly happy to be able to listen to snippets of Michael Grogan's box playing on the Topic record. I'd been curious to hear him ever since I read the booklet that accompanied Topic's Sliabh Luachra series of LPs, where the author, Alan Ward, wrote that John Clifford greatly admired Grogan and surmised that Clifford's playing on his D/D# (inside-out) was close to Grogan's style.

To say nothing of all the clips of Sligo fiddlers on the other page you linked to, many of which I had or have on cassettes that are scarcely playable any more.

I found another track of Grogan, and one more of the Belhavel Trio under their individual names, here: http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=1551  Seemingly a different LP with the same title and cover photo, also compiled by Reg Hall, but issued on Folkways. Were there more than one in the Topic series? The Belhavel Trio's Ashplant set also appears on both records, but the rest of the tracks appear to be different.

You can download the cover and insert for the Smithsonian record, and here is what the notes say about the Liddys (maybe this is the same info as on yours, Paul?):

Quote
The Liddy brothers (often pronounced Leddy) were born into a musical family at Killargue Post Office, Dromahair, Co. Leitrim, Joseph in 1904 and Thomas in 1908. Their parents were accordeon players and there is another brother and sister who play the accordeon and fiddle. Ned O'Gorman was a little older and was from Coole, Co. Westmeath.

Tommy Liddy was in New York in 1928-9 and spent his spare time at the home of John McKenna and played at dance-halls and parties with McKenna, Michael Coleman and Jim Morrison. The trio was formed in Dublin in 1932 specifically to broadcast on Radio Eireann and later formed the nucleus of the Kincora Ceilidhe Band (led by Kathleen Harrington and including Frank O'Higgins on the fiddle) which recorded and broadcast regularly.

Thomas describes the trio as being "inseparable" until the sudden death of Ned O'Gorman sometime in the 1950's. The Liddys are still musically active and live in Co. Dublin.

Brian O'Lynn exists in many distinct settings. In O'Neill it is called Gurney's Fancy and during the war Michael Gorman and his fellow musicians in London called O'Neill's version Hitler's Downfall. More recently Paddy Canny's version has become popular through his Gael Linn recording. Clonmel is in Co. Tipperary.

The accordeon here is a two row melodeon pitched in D and D sharp and the style is a transitional one between, say, the Hyde Brothers' (single row -melodeons) on Folkways EN 6818 and Paddy O'Brien's. This trio using the pipes chanter (without drones and regulators) and the accordeon pitched an octave down produced a fantastic range of sounds and together with its great attack made some of the most virile music to have been recorded in Ireland.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 01:33:19 PM by Steve Jones »
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pgroff

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 02:32:05 PM »

Hi Steve,

The Folkways LP you reference is a modern version of the vinyl LP I heard in the 1980s; the vinyl version had two tracks by the Belhavel trio. The topic cd "Irish Dance Music" did have some overlap with that vinyl LP, but some different tracks including one by the Belhavel. And yes, there is also a cd in the Topic series "Past Masters of Irish Dance Music" that has still other tracks.

So far it looks like we have accounted for the following great recordings of Tommy and Joe Liddy:

Belhavel Trio: Sporting Paddy, The Mullingar Races, The Hunter's Purse (reels)
Belhavel Trio: The Ashplant, The Merry Harriers, The Hut in the Bog (reels)
Belhavel Trio: Brian O'Lynn, The Rakes of Clonmel [, Mullaney Favorite] (jigs). There are only two tunes though.

(Not including the Kincora Ceili Band recordings).

And this one is listed on the Roots Music site, but looks like a misattribution:
Joe and Tommy Liddy: The First of May (hornpipe).

PG

« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 02:39:32 PM by pgroff »
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mikesamwild

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 09:00:41 AM »

thanks Paul and Steve - that LP was very influential on my listening and playing.  Geat notes by Reg Hall.

Am I mistaken or is the Carraroe Jig that is often played from their recorded version?


All the best for 2010
Mike
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Mike in Sheffield

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pgroff

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2009, 02:03:19 PM »

Hi Mike,

I don't know the source of the Carraroe Jig but know I have read something about it. It is related to Scotsman over the Border and to a song with a similar name.

There was a great recording of the Carraroe Jig along with a version of the Rambling Pitchfork (under the name, "Lambert's") on one of the 78s by the original Ballinakill Traditional Dance Players, and that set of jigs is on the Folkways LP.

Some other great tracks of the original Ballinakill are also available at the same Roots Music Listening Room site I linked above.

PG
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 03:37:04 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 05:31:18 PM »

Hi all,

Digging up this thread to add a great photo just sent me by Ted McGraw.

It looks to me that in this early photo Tommy Liddy is playing a 2-row International, the kind that usually have 2 reeds per button, but only two stops.  The second photo below shows one of these (black, on the right); this one is in high-pitch B/C, voiced MM, with a stop to change each row from MM to M.  It would be interesting to know the keys and voicing of Tommy's box in the first photo!

In a later photo with the Kincora Ceili band, Tommy seems to be playing a celluloid-finished Hohner (possibly one of the grey ones with pearl keys).

PG
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triskel

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2014, 09:19:39 PM »

Ted's photo of the Belhavel Trio is from the wonderful Ceol Tíre LP (Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann Records C 12, 1975), which is mainly centred around the talented Gardiner family from Ballymote, Co. Sligo. It includes old recordings of the Kincora Céilí Band, the Gardiner Traditional Trio and the Belhavel Trio.

pgroff

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2014, 06:11:32 PM »

Thanks triskel! 

I never had the good luck to find that LP, or even hear about it until recently.  I see that some sources list the catalogue number as "CCE CL 12" and the date as 1976, but I suspect you are reading off an actual copy in hand.  Some great music there.

Some of those tracks have been reissued on more recent cds, but I'm not sure all of them have been. Will have to keep my eye out for this.

PG
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triskel

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 06:55:19 PM »

Paul,

I've had a copy since it was issued (though I could be a year out on when that was?), but I haven't had a turntable to play it on for the past decade (must do something about that!). I'll dig the LP out when I get a chance.

Stephen

pgroff

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »

Hi triskel,

We gave our turntable away too in one of the recent moves . . . the houses for rent in Miami don't have basements for some reason & are short on space . . . but mainly, when my oldest was a toddler he couldn't be kept away from it.  Saved the LPs (so far).

Here's the other photo I mentioned showing Tommy Liddy with what I think is a later model of accordion.  Not sure the "1925" date is correct; if the accordion is perhaps a celluloid Hohner, it looks 1930s at least. The keyboard profile of Tommy's box here resembles the 1930s B/C MMM 3-voice shown on the left in the second photo, but isn't exactly right around the bass buttons.  Again, Tommy's box would likely be a "D" system of some kind, so based on triskel's point that only the B/C models were "double rays" we wouldn't expect Tommy's to have the double ray stenciling or the black dot button.

Thanks to Ted for this photo also.

PG
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 03:45:50 PM by pgroff »
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triskel

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2014, 02:05:13 PM »

Here's the other photo I mentioned showing Tommy Liddy with what I think is a later model of accordion.  Not sure the "1925" date is correct; if the accordion is perhaps a celluloid Hohner, it looks 1930s at least. ...

Thanks to Ted for this photo also.

Another photo from the same Ceol Tíre LP.

Both the style of the Hohner box, and the women's clothes and hairstyles, would suggest the photo was taken a decade or so later than indicated - certainly not in 1925.

KLR

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 03:45:08 PM »

Was about to say that definitely isn't 1925; in fact in one of the Topic CDs they show that photo and, IIRC, the caption gives a date post WWII.

Carraroe House was where the Ballinakill Band practiced - it was the home of the piano player, who was a bit further up the "totem pole" socially, according to Reg Hall.  You have the Ballinakill Band's setting of that jig, and then Paddy Killoran's "Scotsman Over the Border," which are almost the same tune/setting but not quite, which often leads to confusion, for me anyway.

Regarding Belhavel Trio discs, the flip side of the Sporting Paddy set was hornpipes:  Plains of Boyle/   Tim the Turncoat.  Perhaps someday Reg will find the means to reissue that one, presumably he has the disc itself.  They had another 78, too:  Job of Journeywork/There is a Man, and Reels: Belhavel Favourites.  "There Is A Man"?  Sounds like a gospel tune.  There's a set dance, Is The Big Man Within?  Perhaps it's that tune. 

I learned about these cuts recently when I stumbled across Barry Taylor's Echoes of Erin database of British Isles 78s:     Echoes of Erin Discography & Database - Edition 2 | Oidhreacht an Chlair.  He has info on US recordings too but years ago I acquired a copy of the Irish section Phillipe Varlet put together for Dick Spottswood's Ethnographic Discography of 78s books which is pretty exhaustive, so Barry's work here wasn't quite so useful in that regard, but the material on what was in stores on the other side of the Atlantic far outdid anything I'd come across to date.

When I became interested in boxes I wanted a 2 row version of whatever Frank Quinn played - still do!  What a sound.   :|||:
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KLR

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 03:56:05 PM »

Incidentally, I read from Stephen's well-read concertina.net article that Michael Grogan played a G/G#, but I tried playing along with him and he seemed to be playing a B/C on-the-row - Scholar in C, Pigeon on the Gate in Dmin, etc.   
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triskel

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2014, 11:07:19 PM »

... in one of the Topic CDs they show that photo and, IIRC, the caption gives a date post WWII.

I'll stick with the ladies' fashions and mid to late 1930s...  ;)

Incidentally, I read from Stephen's well-read concertina.net article that Michael Grogan played a G/G#, but I tried playing along with him and he seemed to be playing a B/C on-the-row - Scholar in C, Pigeon on the Gate in Dmin, etc.

In photos that I've seen he changed from a 2-row International melodeon (that I have about 10 of in various keys/states of repair, mostly in C/C#, but a couple of each of G/G# and B/C too) to a black Hohner No. 1020 button box with gold wreath design painted on it (one of which, originally C/C# but now C#/D, I use as a playing instrument), and he probably had several others over the years too. As best I can tell (and I've discussed this with Charlie Harris) the earlier International sounds to have been in G/G#, whilst he's shown with the Hohner, which is most likely to have been C/C#, on the leaflet for a later set of recordings (Charlie has it on his wall!) - otherwise it would have have had to be a No. 1021 "Double-Ray Black Dot" to be in B/C, but he could have had one of those too, after they came out in April 1934...

But in the 1930's Irish players had yet to settle on a best key system, or how to play it, and often played whatever was available to them, so that boxes/box players were commonly in the "wrong" key - whilst both Paddy O'Brien and Joe Burke played G/G# before changing to B/C.

KLR

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2014, 12:30:02 AM »

He made just one record in 1931 and one side of that was the Off to California/Dunphy's set featured on the Irish Dance Music record, I see what you're saying there, on my trusty whistle he comes out right in A, which is close enough to G#, given the vagaries of pitch/playback.  The other side of that disc had My Love is in America, which would be informative to hear, to see if he had figured out or taken an interest in the whole floating pitch phenomenon with that note in Irish music.

Looks like he made a whole heap of discs, most of the reissues have been from 1938 but also a lot of sides in 1942 solo, and more in 1946 with fiddler John Howard.  Topic reissued one more too, a set of jigs, on Voice Of The People Vol 14 - Troubles They Are But Few.  Does Charlie have a lot of old discs to go with all the old boxes?  Or perhaps you know Emmett Gill and the fellow he did the OldTime Records CDs with all the 78s.  Great stuff.
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triskel

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Re: Tommy Liddy of the Belhavel Trio and Kincora Ceili Band
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 02:30:20 AM »

He made just one record in 1931 and one side of that was the Off to California/Dunphy's set featured on the Irish Dance Music record, I see what you're saying there, on my trusty whistle he comes out right in A, which is close enough to G#, given the vagaries of pitch/playback.

Yes, that'd be it! In fact the pitch of those old International boxes is so high that G# on one is pretty close to A=440.

Quote
Or perhaps you know Emmett Gill and the fellow he did the OldTime Records CDs with all the 78s.  Great stuff.

I don't know Emmett but one of his "partners in crime", Alan Morrisroe, is an old friend - in fact (mea culpa!) it was myself that set him on the path of collecting all those 78rpm discs, after he mentioned that he'd love to hear the record that Peter Conlon's elder sister Mary Ellen made and I found a copy, a few weeks later, on eBay for him - he started seriously buying off the internet after that...  ::)
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