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Author Topic: Playing for Morris  (Read 19162 times)

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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2010, 01:05:27 PM »

Our (Ebor Morris) Wall of Sound varies very much with who's there, who's not dancing and who's just gone off to the pub. At out of season practices, it's whichever musicians can be bothered to turn out in the cold, wet and mud (usually two melodeons and my fiddle) and at our Dance-Outs it can be anybody who happens to have brought an instrument. Usually this works out OK, apart from one person who is a much better dancer than musician, unless he is dancing when it is vice versa.
We do tend to stand in a line, but the melodeons are in the middle and lead when we dance.
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2010, 06:29:06 PM »

The most important thing .....is not to stand in a line...

Earlier I mentioned having contributed to bad morris music. Well.....some years ago we had a large band strung out in long a single line at the side of the dancers - due to restricted space. About half way through the dance we began to get pained looks from the dancers - it transpired that one end of the band had dropped into a different tune to the other end...both of which were different to what the ones in the middle were playing....... :-[

Incidentally, as far as any "band" over the number of 1 are concerned, it's important that somebody is known to be the leader.

Mike

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IanD

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2010, 10:23:41 PM »

I find it sad (and unintentionally insulting to others who do things differently) when people say that Morris music should always be this or should never be that. We should all be free to determine what works best in our particular situation without censorship or criticism from others. One of the interesting things about Morris dancing and the musicianship that accompanies it is that there are many different ways of interpreting it. Naturally, we all see some sides whose style appeals to us and others that we find less appealing, but that should not translate into blanket statements that certain things must be done in certain ways or that other things should never happen.

Same as with dancing -- style is one thing which is indeed a matter of interpretation and opinion, and not everyone will agree (Marmite :-)

Crap dancing or music at a public performance is however beyond the pale. If teams can't perform to a reasonable standard -- you know, dancing together in time to reasonably competent music -- they shouldn't be out in public reinforcing the already poor opinion that many people have of morris.

Ian
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Guy

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2010, 11:48:21 PM »



Crap dancing or music at a public performance is however beyond the pale. If teams can't perform to a reasonable standard -- you know, dancing together in time to reasonably competent music -- they shouldn't be out in public reinforcing the already poor opinion that many people have of morris.

Ian

I'm not sure that I entirely agree. Whether it's Morris, playing, singing in a club...whatever, we've all got to start somewhere, and should encourage people to perform live. I'm sure we've all been part of performances at some time that looking back on it were not great, at best. I know I have, anyway!

But I do agree about standards-maybe it's something to do with attitudes to our performances. If people are looking to improve and practice to do that, then I think it's ok-it's when they're complacent about their performance, and think whatever they do is good enough....

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Mike Gott

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2010, 12:50:37 PM »

....If teams can't perform to a reasonable standard -- you know, dancing together in time to reasonably competent music -- they shouldn't be out in public.....
Ian

Even in the light of my earlier admission, I'm with you on that, Ian. Sending dancers and musicians out in public before they're up to scratch doesn't do either of them any good. I'd rather not perform than go out knowing that I was about to unleash something substandard on an audience. Basically - don't get up and do something that you wouldn't be prepared to sit through yourself!



Mike
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Lester

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2010, 01:01:37 PM »

....If teams can't perform to a reasonable standard -- you know, dancing together in time to reasonably competent music -- they shouldn't be out in public.....
Ian

Even in the light of my earlier admission, I'm with you on that, Ian. Sending dancers and musicians out in public before they're up to scratch doesn't do either of them any good. I'd rather not perform than go out knowing that I was about to unleash something substandard on an audience. Basically - don't get up and do something that you wouldn't be prepared to sit through yourself!

Mike

Whilst in principle I agree with Mike and Ian I play for a "special needs" morris side which has gathered together some good dancers and some less good and 1 or 2 poor dancers. Viewed from a purist morris point of view we are really not very good - not on correct leg - hands not in time - etc - but Joe Public seem to really enjoy what we do. We are always welcomed back at return events, we are regularly re-booked for pay events. We go about it in a cheerful manner, here is plenty of banter and gross mistakes are exposed for what they are and enjoyed as such.

So is it MORRIS maybe not, is it entertainment definitely - was MORRIS ever what was written down and anointed as being RIGHT probably not either.

Mike Gott

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2010, 03:42:35 PM »

Whilst in principle I agree with Mike and Ian ...........

Good point, Lester. I think that failing to entertain is probably just as big a crime if not more so. It's something quite a lot of folks seem to fail to consider as part of their performance these days - too many people playing in public but just for their own satisfaction...

Mike
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IanD

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2010, 06:43:16 PM »

Whilst in principle I agree with Mike and Ian ...........

Good point, Lester. I think that failing to entertain is probably just as big a crime if not more so. It's something quite a lot of folks seem to fail to consider as part of their performance these days - too many people playing in public but just for their own satisfaction...

Mike


I didn't want to get into the subject of teams who *are* technically good but don't know how to involve and entertain the audience, that's another subject entirely...

There's room for everything from adequate teams who are great fun to great teams who are adequate fun -- of course, great teams who are great fun are the ideal, but not that common.

But with rare exceptions like the special needs team referred to afterwards, I've seen teams dancing out who are just a joke, so bad that even non-morris people can tell that they're rubbish rather than even barely acceptable. We're not talking about opinions about how a particular dance or tradition should be done here, just basic "can they dance together with each other and the music".

Yes everyone has to learn, that's what practices are for, to learn the dancing and the music to be able to go out and perform something at least passable -- I'm talking basic skills here, not top-flight standards. It's no different to the reason that you'd expect a busker playing in public to be able to play with reasonable competence, someone who's being playing the violin for a few months and can't even play in tune should not be inflicting horrible noises on the ears of the public.

Why should morris dancing -- and music -- be any different?

Ian
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oggiesnr

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2010, 10:07:10 AM »

I'm not worried about how many musicians play (as long as they're together) but I am concerned about being able to hear what's being played.

I've seen a couple of sides recently with solo musicians (one a fiddle player,the other team had a melodeon) where even from nearby I was struggling to hear the music.  The box-player had a pokerwork, plenty loud enough you would think but there was almost no bellows movement and almost no sound!

By the same token I've seen a couple of Border teams where the "drum corp" drowned out the melody instruments.

Steve
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george garside

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2010, 10:42:26 AM »

IN these days of declining interest in participating in morris  ( & for that matter in any other activity that requires commitment)  few sides  can guarantee putting up a team of top class dancers & highly skilled & practiced musicians at every turnout.  As a species we are gradually becoming older & have difficulty in recruiting new younger members so we do the best we can, despite creaking joints, knackered knees etc etc & most importantly most of us enjoy what we are doing.

 As far as musicians are concerned its often a question of doing the best you can with what youve got on the day & I also see it as important to 'accomodate' those who can no longer dance by welcoming them into the band with tambouine, shaky egg or whatever - it enables the continuing social cohesion , does no harm whatsoever & makes the band look bigger to the public & therefore adds to the spectacle if not greatly to the music.

At the end of the day  morris should be a 'fun' thing complete with happy smiling faces - whats the point in doing it if its serious to the point of misery & exclusion.

george
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2010, 11:45:26 AM »

Yes everyone has to learn, that's what practices are for, to learn the dancing and the music to be able to go out and perform something at least passable -- I'm talking basic skills here, not top-flight standards. It's no different to the reason that you'd expect a busker playing in public to be able to play with reasonable competence, someone who's being playing the violin for a few months and can't even play in tune should not be inflicting horrible noises on the ears of the public.

Why should morris dancing -- and music -- be any different?

Ian
I agree with Ian here and frankly I think it DOES matter what the public think morris dancing is. I've got nothing against people dressing up and running around shouting - just don't call it MORRIS. That, by association, means the rest of us are doing the same thing. Well we're not. Sorry for being grumpy (oh no I'm not).
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2010, 11:54:30 AM »

...

At the end of the day  morris should be a 'fun' thing complete with happy smiling faces - what's the point in doing it if its serious to the point of misery & exclusion.


I'm sure I've read '...stern of countenance' somewhere, no mention of enjoyment as far as I can recall ;D

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Mike Gott

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2010, 12:47:17 PM »

You can have "fun" and smile and still do what you're doing well! In fact the grin factor from doing something well and knowing that you're doing something well is far greater than the cheap laugh value of doing something obviously rubbish in public. Some styles of morris are of course shambolic by nature, but there's no excuse for the music to be . I know that we're indulging in a hobby, that we're all amateurs - but that shouldn't be the excuse for turning out something shoddy.

Mike
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Owen Woods

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2010, 03:34:30 PM »

I think that people are basically in agreement here. Most people think that Morris dancing done very badly should not be displayed, i.e. little sense of rhythm, boring dances, poor musicianship, hand movements not in time with one another etc. But there is a whole spectrum between the dreadful and the impeccable. Personally I would much rather see a side with drive and energy, but a little raggedy around the edges, than one which is technically very good in terms of stepping or hand movements, but is fairly staid, men not rising well or moving very much.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2010, 08:34:50 AM »

Norbert Pignol believes that any 'Art' is as nothing unless you perform it. I'd guess this is very true of Morris, and not a mile off wrt melodeon or other music. We could argue the fine detail (and probably will..)   So one issue is at what stage you 'go out and do'. 

Another is whether you do anything about it when you know something is poor. There's always collateral damage in change, and a morris side has a strong sociological aspect - we've even used the word 'political'.

I'm slowly coming to a conclusion that the only way to get truly chrisp morris is to start with a bunch of fresh lads. Isn't there a Headington tune along those lines?
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2010, 10:02:26 AM »



I'm slowly coming to a conclusion that the only way to get truly chrisp morris is to start with a bunch of fresh lads. Isn't there a Headington tune along those lines?

I think you're right there, Chrisp.

There are a few sides out there who have probably passed their "best before" date, and reached a point at which they simply aren't going to attract youngsters to join them. What we need is people with the initiative to go out and start a new morris revival, getting groups of young lads (or lasses, or both) to start new locally based sides, all learning together and thereby creating their own style.   
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2010, 11:39:32 AM »

I think that people are basically in agreement here. Most people think that Morris dancing done very badly should not be displayed, i.e. little sense of rhythm, boring dances, poor musicianship, hand movements not in time with one another etc. But there is a whole spectrum between the dreadful and the impeccable. Personally I would much rather see a side with drive and energy, but a little raggedy around the edges, than one which is technically very good in terms of stepping or hand movements, but is fairly staid, men not rising well or moving very much.

So would I -- though even better would be to have drive and energy *and* technical excellence -- and knowing how to involve and entertain an audience as well would put the icing on the cake :-)

Though I wouldn't agree with the "men" bit -- I've seen a couple of women's Cotswold teams who can dance the socks off most men's teams...

Ian
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2010, 11:47:32 AM »

Ian, I agree, I am all for mixed or female sides as long as they dance the Morris properly :P I have seen some fantastic mixed sides around.



I'm slowly coming to a conclusion that the only way to get truly chrisp morris is to start with a bunch of fresh lads. Isn't there a Headington tune along those lines?

I think you're right there, Chrisp.

There are a few sides out there who have probably passed their "best before" date, and reached a point at which they simply aren't going to attract youngsters to join them. What we need is people with the initiative to go out and start a new morris revival, getting groups of young lads (or lasses, or both) to start new locally based sides, all learning together and thereby creating their own style.   

The problems there comes with getting someone to teach them, as learning Morris out of the black book is a trifle difficult...
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2010, 11:51:22 AM »



I'm slowly coming to a conclusion that the only way to get truly chrisp morris is to start with a bunch of fresh lads. Isn't there a Headington tune along those lines?

I think you're right there, Chrisp.

There are a few sides out there who have probably passed their "best before" date, and reached a point at which they simply aren't going to attract youngsters to join them. What we need is people with the initiative to go out and start a new morris revival, getting groups of young lads (or lasses, or both) to start new locally based sides, all learning together and thereby creating their own style.   

Or to join an existing team which has a strong style and knows how to dance and enjoy themselves and already has "youngsters" -- meaning people in their teens or twenties -- dancing with them. They do exist you know...

The problem with starting a new young side and learning together is that you can end up with teams who are very fit and athletic but don't understand what it takes to make morris look really good as a dance, and end up looking like a set of energetic but inexperienced jig dancers not a team.

The best foremen usually have considerable experience in both learning and teaching dancing, this is something that takes years to acquire. In a way it's like young musical virtuosos, many are technically excellent but don't yet have the real feel for the music needed to produce a really stunning performance.

Ian
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Re: Playing for Morris
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2010, 11:55:35 AM »

...

At the end of the day  morris should be a 'fun' thing complete with happy smiling faces - what's the point in doing it if its serious to the point of misery & exclusion.


I'm sure I've read '...stern of countenance' somewhere, no mention of enjoyment as far as I can recall ;D

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They were probably worrying about being sacked for taking time off hard farm work to gallivant off doing morris ;-)

I agree that morris should be enjoyable both for the dancers and the audience, or there's no point -- but "fun" conjures up images of the hideous fake pasted-on grins that I've seen some dance teams put on...

Ian
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