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Author Topic: Copyright on recordings  (Read 3919 times)

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LDbosca

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Copyright on recordings
« on: January 27, 2010, 02:11:35 PM »

Hi all,
I know there's been some discussion before on copyright and tune transcriptions/tune of the month etc. and I have another copyright related question. I understand that after around 50 years sound recordings go out of copyright, hence the great traditional Irish material available on archive.org. However, if a sounds recording should be out of copyright but has been rereleased, for example as part of a compilation, is it in or out of copyright? The reason I ask is that Joe Derrane's original recordings for the 1940s/1950s with his teacher Jerry O'Brien should be out of copyright but were rereleased as "Joe Derrane and Jerry O'Brien: Irish Accordion Masters" and I was hoping to be get the Irish Traditional Music Archive to make me a copy of it if I could prove it was not covered by copyright.

So if there's any legal eagles out there I look forward to hearing from you!
Thanks,
Luke.

Guy

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2010, 02:33:31 PM »

Joe Derrane's original recordings for the 1940s/1950s with his teacher Jerry O'Brien should be out of copyright but were rereleased as "Joe Derrane and Jerry O'Brien: Irish Accordion Masters" and I was hoping to be get the Irish Traditional Music Archive to make me a copy of it if I could prove it was not covered by copyright.

Luke.

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but couldn't you just look for a copy of "Joe Derrane and Jerry O'Brien: Irish Accordion Masters" on cd? Or are there more tracks unissued or unavailable?

Cheers,
Guy
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Andrel

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 03:13:43 PM »

Did you try these guys ?
  http://www.regorecords.com/joedurjerob.html

  Or is it so you can play the stuff with the arrangements without worrying about legalities (say at a gig). After re-reading your post, I now assume you do have the CD. Anyway it might me helpful to somebody else...can't help you with the legal stuff, though.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 03:28:36 PM by Andrel »
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LDbosca

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 05:39:21 PM »

Joe Derrane's original recordings for the 1940s/1950s with his teacher Jerry O'Brien should be out of copyright but were rereleased as "Joe Derrane and Jerry O'Brien: Irish Accordion Masters" and I was hoping to be get the Irish Traditional Music Archive to make me a copy of it if I could prove it was not covered by copyright.

Luke.

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but couldn't you just look for a copy of "Joe Derrane and Jerry O'Brien: Irish Accordion Masters" on cd? Or are there more tracks unissued or unavailable?

Cheers,
Guy

Kautilya

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 06:45:02 PM »

Hi all,
I know there's been some discussion before on copyright and tune transcriptions/tune of the month etc. and I have another copyright related question. I understand that after around 50 years sound recordings go out of copyright,.........
Luke.
After DEATH.
It could be your gig  being nicked in the future Luke when u need the royalties...and soon u will have to pay Mr Foxy to read the first URL and see what happened to another student in 2007 at the second one

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article5720510.ece

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7074786.stm

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LDbosca

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 07:51:44 PM »

I'm not talking about setting up an internationally accessible website that doesn't adhere to international laws, I'm talking about copying a recording of artists who Im nearly sure don't receive royalties from. If you read Susan Gedutis' book "See You at The Hall" you'll see that Joe Derrane and other artists recorded in Boston by Copley at that time did so for a fixed fee and received no royalties. Having originally recorded under this agreement I would be surprised if they are receiving any royalties now. Plus, there is a reason why I asked if it was legal or not. While I appreciate the links and information, I do somewhat resent the term "nicking" someone's gig. I'm working on a dissertation on Joe Derrane and his music as part of a final year on a music degree. I'm not talking about pirating music, hence the post in the first place.

nemethmik

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 08:39:39 PM »

"Joe Derrane and Jerry O'Brien: Irish Accordion Masters"
I am a fan of Joe Derrane music and if I have this CD, can I send it to Luke for his work?
And when he is done in a year or so he could send it back.
Miki
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Andrel

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 08:54:16 PM »

  Interesting subject. I'd love to read the dissertation when it's done if it's accessible. I've been a fan of Derrane for years, and I still  wonder how he could play so brilliantly at Wolf Trap after such a hiatus. He actually never stopped playing, just not Irish trad and he didn't have a two-row box, but a PA, apparently. And his music kept evolving after 94. His ornamentation on hornpipes is particularly fascinating. A master indeed... Good luck with your dissertation.
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Guy

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2010, 11:36:03 PM »

Luke,

I've got a copy of the Joe Derrane CD which you're welcome to borrow-PM me if you'd like to take me up on this....

Cheers,
Guy
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Kautilya

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 01:09:10 AM »

I'm not talking about setting up an internationally accessible website that doesn't adhere to international laws, I'm talking about copying a recording of artists who Im nearly sure don't receive royalties from. If you read Susan Gedutis' book "See You at The Hall" you'll see that Joe Derrane and other artists recorded in Boston by Copley at that time did so for a fixed fee and received no royalties. Having originally recorded under this agreement I would be surprised if they are receiving any royalties now. Plus, there is a reason why I asked if it was legal or not. While I appreciate the links and information, I do somewhat resent the term "nicking" someone's gig. I'm working on a dissertation on Joe Derrane and his music as part of a final year on a music degree. I'm not talking about pirating music, hence the post in the first place.
Sorry if I touched a nerve but please don't shoot the messenger - you asked about copyright period, I pointed you in the direction of info, and tried to be a little lighthearted to show you that your own future (hopefully) compositions and ouput may have value, as does that of others - that's all.

It is great that someone can lend you the CD. Good solution.

But the copyright will belong to the recording company (still) even if they arent paying royalties to players.

You might also look at permissions in terms of reproducing musical extracts.. that would be good practice for your dissertation, although you would usually be excused in terms of it being a non-commercial piece of academic work. (They can be time-consuming and expensive.)

But if it turns out to be bestseller and you start selling it and making money from it after you finish, you could find yourself being asked to cough up....! Further, it is not unknown nowadays for educational institutions to claim copyright in student's work and include that  work in dvd compilations which they then sell as course units at stiff prices.
 
If you want to know a little bit more about how the wrong route can be expensive in terms of visuals (and that would include music scores) u might find this interesting.
http://www.epuk.org/The-Curve/491/enforcing-your-copyright

And BTW - never give your work away to a commercial publisher for a flat fee - always offer only a limited copyright license and never give print and e-rights away as one package. Keep em separate.

More info at http://www.societyofauthors.org/faqs/faqs9.html

and at DACS and ALCS and PLR.....and the copyrightclassaction  claim and the Google Settlement which has not been settled and the threat of legal action for copyright misuse on youtube (and read youtube's own warning on copyright....

And I am sure we ALL  hope u get a good mark!

ps David Hoffman does not mind his article being reproduced in this kind of context - I have asked his permission ...



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Andrel

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 01:52:03 AM »

  And what about Jerry O'Brien's tune book. What's the copyright on that one ? When I bought it, all I got were xeroxed sheets. Useful and informative nonetheless, with D/C# layouts and detailed fingerings  with the mention *as played by J.Derrane* (oh Boy, Oh Boy!)The original must be quite valuable.
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Falseknight

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 03:47:06 PM »

It is after 50 years after death for published work, but fifty years from first publication for recorded work.  Cliff richards and the like are getting quite het up because their early material is now available for compilation.

There is also a copyright that exists on the "edition" for printed music or the "collection" for recorded music.  This is why Handel's Messiah is periodically re-published - to keep the printed work in publishers copyright.

Copyright law is an absolute minefield, designed to keep lawyers rich and musicians poor and well overdue massive, global revision to cope with the opportunities and pitfalls of new technology.
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Kautilya

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2010, 03:55:07 PM »

Luke, you (and other composers and performers on melnet) might also look at joining (very cheap) the Performing Rights Society (and maybe pushing for a student membership category later!)

but watch out for paras such as

By signing the Application Form, you appoint MCPS as your agent throughout the world, for all mechanical rights which
you own or control as described in your completed Licensing and Collection Mandate. If, however, you are a direct
member of an overseas society, membership of that society takes precedence in that territory (see clause 6.1 of the
Membership Agreement).

which one would have thought really should include the words " 'non-exclusive' agent" but I have not read all the detail as this is not my patch and they do have belonging to another country organisation caveat there.

start here:
http://www.prsformusic.com/creators/wanttojoin/join_us/Pages/JoinMCPSPRSWriter.aspx

btw - simple tunes can be worth a few bob - look at the ups and downs of Happy Birthday at
http://www.metafilter.com/72656/copyrite-more-like-copyrong
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 05:15:36 PM by Kautilya »
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LDbosca

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2010, 04:50:03 PM »

Thanks very much to everyone for the information. I'm being provided with the material in question by a forum member, for which I am very grateful.

Andrel, I might give you a shout in the future if I can't get that Jerry O'Brien book in the archive, maybe you could help with a scan of a few pages? I'll let you know if I need it.

For anyone who's interested in the dissertation it's an 8,000-10,000 undergraduate dissertation, not exactly huge. I've been dragging my heels on it and I've just been hit with a new years panic so I'm trying to get going on it. I've 2000 words done on Derrane's ornamentation and how it compares to the Paddy O'Brien/Joe Burke/Irish style model, describing it in similar terms to aid comparison. This will be followed by a transcription and analysis of his playing. I won't say any more as I haven't finished it or handed it in and I'd like to protect my ideas until then. I'm not sure if it'll be incredibly illuminating to those who are familiar with Derrane's playing to be honest but to the type of people who will be marking it (non-accordion players, probably non-traditional musicians) it should hit the spot. As regards sharing it, I'll consider it once it's handed in and marked, I'm a little afraid of scrutiny from my peers! Bit silly I know! :o

Thanks again, I'll keep you all posted once it takes shape.
Luke. (:)

Andrel

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2010, 05:03:47 PM »

  No problem, Luke. Just let me know. It might also be useful to contact Philippe Varlet @ Celtic Grooves. He's largely responsible for re-issuing those Copley records, and he's a very helpful guy. A wealth of information.
  Andre
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Andrel

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2010, 05:36:39 PM »

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LDbosca

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2010, 05:42:10 PM »

Awesome, thanks. I've also just had a check and it's in the archive's catalogue too, if any of it isn't on that site I'll go in and copy the relevant pages.

edit~
I'm having trouble getting the pictures to display on that page, seems like it's just the cover there anyway, am I right? I can get it now anyway so it's grand.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 05:43:45 PM by LDbosca »
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Kautilya

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2010, 06:18:40 PM »

  No problem, Luke. Just let me know. It might also be useful to contact Philippe Varlet @ Celtic Grooves. He's largely responsible for re-issuing those Copley records, and he's a very helpful guy. A wealth of information.
  Andre
U probly already checked but there are two scores of Derrane's in the British Library if that is any use

http://entrypoint.bl.uk/Results.aspx?query=derrane&imageField.x=56&imageField.y=24&ILS=True

Dont know where u are physically and you would need a 'reader's' card to get in. BUT  u can always ring and ask for the music desk and they are helpful if u explain yourr needs.  They also may have so far uncatalogued recordings (they are working on the sound archive). U can listen to on site at St Pancras London.

I believe there are no specific O'Brien holdingsat BL or NLI (Dublin) but there may be uncatalogued sound.

You might aslo  ask Jeremy Hague at  librarian@concertina.org to look through his archive because that is a mine of various types of music not just concertina.
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LDbosca

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Re: Copyright on recordings
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2010, 06:29:11 PM »

That's great, thanks very much. I think I have most of what I need, I don't need a huge volume of sound recordings. I really only need a few modern tracks (I've various albums and I've picked the most useful 2 tracks to mention), some old tracks (I've listened to the Jerry O'Brien & Joe Derrane in the ITMA and it's perfect), recordings of O'Brien (on the same CD) and recordings of Kimmel (public domain). I'll be using a few interviews, liner notes, a book I have on the Boston-Irish scene, maybe the Jerry O'Brien tutor, the companion to Irish Music and Earl Hitchner's lecture on Derrane. Maybe that "Se mo Laoch" as well. I'll be making transcriptions too. It's not exactly a hefty bibliography but I'll bulk it up if needs be.

Now all I've to do is write the bloody thing! Ha! ;)




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