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Author Topic: ABC discussions  (Read 21829 times)

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Bill Young

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ABC discussions
« on: June 03, 2010, 07:33:51 PM »

ABC  :D

Where have the bass/chords gone? One of the deficiencies of ABC, methinks. Just the melody line is far from the whole tune. Standard musical notation wins hands down.

Note also the transcription error in the third full bar - the second G should be A.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 09:14:21 AM by Clive Williams »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Theme of the Month for June 2010 - Write a Tune!
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 07:44:43 PM »

Where have the bass/chords gone? One of the deficiencies of ABC, methinks. Just the melody line is far from the whole tune. Standard musical notation wins hands down.
You can write chords in ABC. Just add the chord name in double quotes immediately before the code for the note on which the chord occurs, e.g....

ABC fragment...
| "G" G B G B | G B d2 | "D" A B/c/ B A | "G" G B d2 | etc...

Some ABC software (e.g. Barfly for Mac) will also expand the chord symbols into full stave notation for you.
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Steve
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Bill Young

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Re: Theme of the Month for June 2010 - Write a Tune!
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 08:12:06 PM »

Where have the bass/chords gone? One of the deficiencies of ABC, methinks.
No, you can do chords in ABC. Some of us think chords are up to the the player and not part of the tune. Anyway some of your "Scottish" chords can't be done on a diatonic-bass melodeon...

(oh, and I spotted the error and fixed it too...)

Well done. But why bother? It's all already there in the MS. And don't tell me it's to generate a midi file - that doesn't include the bass line. We already have an MP3 of the composer playing it to let us know what it sounds like.

ABC might have had a place in the olden days, when computer memory and transmission speeds were limited. Nowadays it's no problem to transmit scores as PDFs or JPGs, and MP3 sound files. ABC? Why?
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Re: Theme of the Month for June 2010 - Write a Tune!
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 08:18:10 PM »

Where have the bass/chords gone? One of the deficiencies of ABC, methinks.
No, you can do chords in ABC. Some of us think chords are up to the the player and not part of the tune. Anyway some of your "Scottish" chords can't be done on a diatonic-bass melodeon...

(oh, and I spotted the error and fixed it too...)

Well done. But why bother? It's all already there in the MS. And don't tell me it's to generate a midi file - that doesn't include the bass line. We already have an MP3 of the composer playing it to let us know what it sounds like.

ABC might have had a place in the olden days, when computer memory and transmission speeds were limited. Nowadays it's no problem to transmit scores as PDFs or JPGs, and MP3 sound files. ABC? Why?

Because they are instantly editable. There isn't a universal music notation programme, the closest thing is ABC. So if you want to put new chords on, say, you would either need to transcribe it into your own programme or write it on by hand, which is messy.
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Re: Theme of the Month for June 2010 - Write a Tune!
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 09:08:10 PM »

ABC might have had a place in the olden days, when computer memory and transmission speeds were limited. Nowadays it's no problem to transmit scores as PDFs or JPGs, and MP3 sound files. ABC? Why?

 ??? Because I'm old fashioned and can't be doing with this new-fangled pen-and-paper stuff. ;)
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2010, 10:11:42 AM »

...ABC? Why?
Because it's easy to use, it allows me to make good looking printed copies of tunes for teaching at workshops, it's easy to share with others over the internet (like this forum ) or by e-mail, etc, and best of all it's FREE!
(I thought people in Scotland would particularly understand the latter attribute  ;) )
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Simon

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2010, 10:11:44 AM »

And it's easier to paste some abc code than to attach a pdf (not to mention that it even works in Lynx  ;D).
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Chris Ryall

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 10:15:45 AM »

[Moved here] There are competing formats for machine readable music. A bit of googling reveals 'MusicXML' and even a convertor. To save other's bother I've run Captain Cadogan's through it and attach the result - it should open and parse in any standards compliant browser*

XML is very current, very sexy, I even use it myself when I want something that is 'pure data'.  But 'edit' that?  The multiple wrappers take it far from the human plane and of course XML being XML - the slightest comma mistyped will render it to useless cyberjunk.

ABC meanwhile - although it somehow fails as a computer language (I'd call it a tokenised script - in there with BASIC)  does feel sort of natural, it knows what folk music is (and even understand the Greek modes!), and can be edited or transcribed by eye without an interpretter. Some claim to be able to play from it by eye. But lets not take it too far.

Horses for courses?  :|glug Chris

*MelNetNanny won't let me upload '.xml' so i've renamed it '.txt.'  
 It will load in a text editor, save and rename '.xml' to see the full glory of parsed XML  ;)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 07:11:33 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Simon

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 01:00:45 PM »

There are competing formats for machine readable music.
The advantage of documented plain text formats is that they will work for quite a while. Binary formats disappear faster than you might think. Remember when everyone used wordperfect? Of course you can still open WP files with most wordprocessors, but I'm worried about what to do with e.g. Finale files once the program doesn't exist anymore and the current version won't work on the latest Win2020.
Both ABC and MusicXML are plain text formats, but with different goals. ABC was developed to be read and written both by computers and humans. It's very easy to type in an abc version of your handwritten notes. MusicXML is not something you'd like to write by hand. The main goal is (just like the NIFF-format) to exchange sheet music between different applications. For simple melody notation with chords I prefer abc. If it gets more complex I like Lilypond (also text-based and open source).
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Steve_freereeder

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Lilypond
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2010, 01:50:12 PM »

If it gets more complex I like Lilypond (also text-based and open source).
Wow! I didn't know about Lilypond. I've just downloaded a copy and worked my way through some of the tutorial files. It seems very powerful, but a bit more fiddly to use than ABC. Generates brilliant scores and parts though, and with all music writing text and symbol features, ff, pp, allegro, etc.

But as far as I can see it doesn't allow you to instantly view the written music at the same time as editing the code (unless I haven't found out how to do that yet). You have to recompile the code each time you want to view the music. But with ABC Barfly for Mac, you can see your music progressing as you enter each note of code, which is good.

Also, in Lilypond is there a way of hearing the music which you write? Haven't found that out yet, but it would appear not. Another good feature of Barfly - you can hear what you've written, which is great for spotting errors.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 01:51:52 PM by Steve_freereeder »
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Steve
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GuyWyatt

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2010, 01:53:10 PM »

And let's be honest ABC is easy.  I spent a long time avoiding it as it looked like yet another thing to wrap my limited headspace around. However I had to stop using my previous music editor (Finale) as I moved from Windows to a Mac.  I was shopping around for suitable software when it was suggested to me that ABC would do the job for nothing. Working from the simple and readily understandable instructions it took me only a few minutes to render a tune into ABC, options of low or high quality PDF output, basic midi output.  A lot less effort than Finale. And free. What's not to like?
G
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Anahata

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2010, 02:21:54 PM »

And let's be honest ABC is easy.
I think the beauty of ABC is that it's so simple. With a little practice, you can type in a tune in a couple of minutes and if it's wrong you can easily see where to fix it.

I haven't learned Lilypond, but I suspect it would take far longer to type it in, and with that, MusicXML and the rest you are back to file formats that can only be generated practically with a special piece of software.

It would be good if all the other music typesetting programs could at least import ABC.
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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2010, 04:00:44 PM »

And for those of us who play G/C in a D/G world, the ease of transposing ABC is a true godsend.
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Gandy

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2010, 04:20:39 PM »

ABC can represent an independent base part, as a separate voice drawn on a separate stave, as well as the "Gm" type chord symbols.

What I can't work out how to do is represent notes of different lengths within the same voice, for example one long note sustained with one finger while the other fingers play several shorter ones.  That seems to only be possible with fairly messy ties.
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Tony S

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 06:47:28 PM »

ABC can represent an independent base part, as a separate voice drawn on a separate stave, as well as the "Gm" type chord symbols.

What I can't work out how to do is represent notes of different lengths within the same voice, for example one long note sustained with one finger while the other fingers play several shorter ones.  That seems to only be possible with fairly messy ties.

I've been there trying to represent piano/organ music with three parts on two staves. You can use chords, but it doesn't come out the same as the original. I think it is a limitation of the ABC software rather than the ABC itself.
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Anahata

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 06:51:45 PM »

What I can't work out how to do is represent notes of different lengths within the same voice, for example one long note sustained with one finger while the other fingers play several shorter ones.
There are three ways to do that, depending on what you want:
  • Put two or more notes in between square brackets: [C2 E]G[c2F]A - the notes in the square brackets all start together
  • If it's more like two independent voices but only briefly, within a bar put in voice 1, then an ampersand, then voice 2 (within the same bar). If voice 2 starts part way through the bar pad the start with x notes (invisible rests)
  • For extended multiple voices, use the V: notation. Also see %%staves for defining how many voices per stave.
Some of the above may only work in ABC Plus, but it's what I use (abcm2ps implements all of it)

Also download a copy of Making Music with ABC Plus by Guido Gonzato. It's an 84 page PDF - I printed mine double sided (I'm lucky to have  a printer that does that) and comb-bound it and it's a very valuable resource that makes frequent journeys between bookshelf and desk (:)
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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 06:55:11 PM »



This page contains the following errors:

error on line 1 at column 12181: Extra content at the end of the document
Below is a rendering of the page up to the first error.

Chris the above is the message I get when trying to open 'Captain Cadogan's'. Am I doing something wrong?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 07:20:00 PM »

Chris the above is the message I get when trying to open 'Captain Cadogan's'. Am I doing something wrong?

Nope - something in Melnet HQ is corrupting the file probably tuncating it  >:( Here's the first 'page' or so of the musicXML file ...

<score-partwise version="2.0">
 <movement-number/>
 <movement-title>Captain Alex Cadogan's March</movement-title>
 <identification>
 <encoding>
  <software>ABC4J></software>
  <encoding-date>2010-06-04</encoding-date>
 </encoding>
</identification>

<part-list>
 <score-part id="P1"><part-name/></score-part>
</part-list>

<part id="P1">
<measure number="1">
<attributes>
<divisions>480</divisions>

<clef>
 <sign>G</sign>
 <line>2</line>
</clef>

<time>
 <beats>2</beats>
 <beat-type>4</beat-type>
</time>

<key>
 <fifths>3</fifths>
 <mode>major</mode>
</key>

</attributes>
 <barline location="left"><repeat direction="forward"/></barline>
 <note><pitch><step>E</step><alter>0</alter><octave>5</octave>


 .... lots more of same.  That's jsut the first note. As you see - not too human being friendly.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 07:24:11 PM by Chris Ryall »
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DRUMKILBO

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 08:05:14 PM »

Bl**dy hell, what have I started, just 'cos I can't do ABC.

Chris, your shortening of the title to 'Captain Cadogan's March' does make it a snappier title.....
 it wasn't Al that broke your nose though was it ?
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Gandy

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Re: ABC discussions
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 08:38:03 PM »

What I can't work out how to do is represent notes of different lengths within the same voice, for example one long note sustained with one finger while the other fingers play several shorter ones.
... There are three ways to do that, depending on what you want:  ...

Thanks for that.
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Tony S
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