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Author Topic: The need for speed...  (Read 14605 times)

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LDbosca

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2010, 05:14:43 PM »


Yes, it definitely happens in "Irish", (inverted commas heavily emphasised), sessions by people who've picked up on one aspect of the style, usually from a distorted perception, and grossly overemphasised it to the detriment of all the others.

Succinctly put.

nfldbox

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2010, 05:15:16 PM »

Dancing is a good control but it is a fact of life--explainable somehow, I presume--that most musicians speed up. If you spend much time in orchestras you will find the conductor says 100 "slow down"s for every one "you're dragging." The latter tends to happen only when the tempo is very fast. Otherwise, everyone speeds up. Perhaps it is just feeling the drive, perhaps once the fingers fall into place they fall faster or whatever. No question the accusation is primarily directed in trad circles at Irish but it is much more general. And back to the opening word, Irish musicians who play for dancers don't speed up.
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waltzman

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2010, 06:13:56 PM »

I personally simply stop playing
If you are playing a good steady tempo and you become aware that someone is pushing the tempo, then listen carefully and you can often spot a particular phrase where the speed increases,   often it is a passage of fast notes, or a run up a scale.  Sometimes you can get back to a steady tempo if you really sit on the rhythm at that point in the tune and play very deliberately. 

At the risk of drawing fire again over the metronome issue, I would like to say that this is where working with a metronome is most useful.  It will make you aware of those bits of a tune where you either speed up or slow down.  These bits are sometimes quite hard to pick up in your own playing but the metronome will ferret them out every time!
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george garside

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2010, 07:37:53 PM »

this seems to apply particularly to those who don't 'keep time' with foot or even feet!. It also seems to be easier for experienced dance musicians ( who may well also play many other non dance tunes) to keep steady time as they are ab le to visualise/audiologise  the subtle difference in tempo between eg reel, rant,  , polka,strathspey, hornpipe, schottische, march, slow march etc - and thats only the 4/4's!  - i.e. they are able to 'aim'  the same tune at a veriety of functions. The same goes for balld accompanyment or just playing singy tunes on their own - its much eassier if you can at least sing it in the privacy of your own head ( vital if youv'e got a non singing voice like mine!)
george
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GbH

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2010, 12:40:24 AM »

Hmmmph!  Pshaw!  I don't really understand where all this anti-going-fast stuff is coming from.  In life generally, speed is associated with excitement and drama - think galloping horses, powerboats and rollercoasters.  Indeed, when we get excited, doesn't our heart beat faster?

In music, tempo and tempo change are additional weapons at our disposal, that we can use to make things more interesting.  You only have to hear something like Kalinka to understand the effect that tempo alone can achieve.  Bearing this in mind, surely it's obvious why people like to play fast, at least some of the time.

I don't agree with this 'it's harder to play slow' stuff, either.  To me, they're both as challenging as you wish to make them.  Playing fast most likely requires a degree of dexterity that takes a lot work to achieve and maintain - plus, even when you've achieved that, you've still got to squeeze the phrasing, articulation and musicality in there too.  If you consider that to be too easy, surely you're not being ambitious enough?

One thing that I learned when performing juggling routines was that the effects of speed are very much relative.  When I wanted to make something appear fast and complicated, I'd do something slow just before, just to get an obvious contrast.  This achieved a far greater response than simply trying to make the fast tricks faster still.  I think this is something that can work just as well with music, too (not just with tempo...) - i.e. it's not so much the actual BPM's that are key, but the relative effect it has on the listener. 

Of course, if people try and play music that's too fast for their own abilities (yep, frequently guilty as charged...) then obviously problems start to occur.  But, is that the fault of the tempo, or of the player? 
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theSmoiler

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2010, 01:29:55 AM »

this seems to apply particularly to those who don't 'keep time' with foot or even feet!.
george

George, it has become glaringly obvious to me over the years that there are many people who think they are 'keeping time' with their foot or feet - and, often, insist on inflicting 'their' time on everybody else in the vicinity - who are blatantly not in time (or, at least not in time with the style required for the particular type of music! such as when a bodhran player insists on beating 'flat' rhythms for English tunes - grrrr) ie either before or after the beat, or tapping irregularly or, not with the 'swing'. It is one of my absolute 'bete noirs' to be near such a person in a session as it is extremely difficult to keep time yourself when in view or ear-shot of such a foot! (had one such occasion recently from a banjo player at a festival Session at Holmfirth - not only did he tap not-in-synch, but he was sat at the front with large feet in almost luminous green shoes! also, he continued such tapping through someone playing a solo slow air...I had to say something  ::) ) in such cases, unless people are sure their timing is pretty accurate, they should keep their foot-tapping discrete/ discreet....

Diane
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Eric Barker

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2010, 05:30:27 AM »

I have also witnessed the 'need for speed' at sessions.  At one time I blamed bluegrass and what I deemed to be its influence on Irish folk bands.  It does seem like music has sped up quite a bit since the late '70s.  I think that many tunes have a pace where they sound musical.  Of course some tunes sound good at any speed but we should be aware of those that have their special pace.  Finally, I was talking to a session musician in NYC about 10 years ago and he commented that he also had noticed a trend towards fast playing and stated that "when a singer sings a song he does not try to sing it as fast as possible.' 'So why do the instrumental players try to play as fast as they can?"  The problem with playing fast all the time is that it makes each piece sound the same.  I have had great luck finding a great variety in pace by musicians from England, Scotland, and regions such as county Clare in Ireland. Perhaps if more people tried JK's idea of playing one tune for 1/2 hour it would slow things down a bit...but once again I am rambling.  Thank you, Eric B.
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Owen Woods

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2010, 08:12:38 AM »

I have to admit that my foot seems to have a mind of it's own, it tends to tap on a beat or on the offbeat, but not necessarily consistently. Since it doesn't seem to affect how I play it isn't much of a problem and I don't think that it is noticeable. Also I often jig my knee up and down rather than tap. Oh and sometimes I do Quebecois stepping :P
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2010, 09:35:16 AM »

I have to admit that my foot seems to have a mind of it's own, it tends to tap on a beat or on the offbeat, but not necessarily consistently.

Same problem here. Drives the French in particular mad - though I think also some English too who are too reserved to shout "Chris, tu tappes le pied comme vache invalide
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Marje

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2010, 08:54:47 PM »

Maybe the real skill is in keeping the speed constant, so you end up playing at the same speed that you started with. Of course, if you're playing with others, the tune may speed up despite you (it's always someone else's fault, isn't it? ).
 
I have the impression that jigs tend to speed up more than reels. There may, as has been suggested, be a particular point in the tune when it tends to speed up. I think it's often the gaps that are the problem - some people can't cope with long notes or rests, and tend to rush on to the next moving note.

I have no idea what you can do about this. It's easy for one person to speed up a tune in a group of players, but very difficult indeed for anyone to slow it down again, even if they want to.

And why does it matter? Well, obviously it matters for dancing. And even in a session, the speed can actually make the music heavier and less interesting. After a certain point, beats and notes get missed out altogether, so an Irish jig ends up sounding like a messy hornpipe, and a reel like a rather ploddy march, because alternate notes are simply being skipped by many of the players. The tune can then begin to lose its identity, as well as losing drive and energy.

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oggiesnr

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2010, 09:38:07 PM »

I was sat at a session recently where everything was played at breakneck pace.  After about half an hour the non-player next me turned round and said "why are they just playing the same tune?"  They hadn't been but I saw their point, it did all sound the same!

As a teenager I had a few lessons with an Irish fiddler, Pat Neely (denizens of Cleetorpes Folk Festivals in the seventies may remember him).  Smahing guy who played for the dance.  The one thing he drummed into me was that these were dance tunes, they had dances with them, play them so the dancers can dance.  I still play reels and hornpipes slower than most and my set dances are very slow compared to modern session taste.  Personally I have a repertoire of slow airs and I tend to throw these into sessions just to vary the tempo.

On a sadder note I took Peter (son) to a session when he was about fifteen, he played EC.  So he started a reel at a reasonable speed and the fiddler next to us took it over and speeded it up to a stupid extent so Peter stopped playing.  At the end of tune said fiddler looked at him and said "never mind, you'll get there someday!"  Peter bit his tongue.

A bit later Peter (ex-chorister with a ferocious gift for music) was playing a harmony to a tune.  D***head said "stop that rubbish, we only play tunes here".  Peter put away his concertina, I packed up and we left.  As we left Peter looked at fiddle player and said "Never mind, one day you'll be able to play in tune!"

Sad thing is Peter has never been to another session and hasn't touched his concertina in five years.  He now plays in a ukelele group and keyboards in a prog-rock group.

Steve
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Owen Woods

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2010, 01:00:16 AM »

I have to admit that my foot seems to have a mind of it's own, it tends to tap on a beat or on the offbeat, but not necessarily consistently.

Same problem here. Drives the French in particular mad - though I think also some English too who are too reserved to shout "Chris, tu tappes le pied comme vache invalide

I tap properly when I stand up, it's only when I sit down that it goes a bit haywire. It's not something that concerns me too much, but it is on my rather large list of "things to fix".
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george garside

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2010, 12:47:42 PM »

amajor problem with over fast session playing is that in reality the tune can finish up as a 'sturmey archer' job i.e. 3 speed!  At speed it is much harder to keep togeth;e;r , particularly when in a sesssion with inevitable differences in competence.  Far better to take t;he top edge off th;e speed so everybody can enjoy joining in at a reasonable pace.  It is for the same reason (keeping together at speed) that many rapper mu;sicians, myself included, mu;ch prefer to  play solo so that things dodn't get muddied.

george
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nemethmik

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2010, 03:13:20 PM »

After about half an hour the non-player next me turned round and said "why are they just playing the same tune?"
Maybe that's why an instructor told me that it's completely meaningless to learn more than two Irish dance tunes: one reel and one jig are perfectly enough.
 :D
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ganderbox

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2010, 04:06:06 PM »

After about half an hour the non-player next me turned round and said "why are they just playing the same tune?"
Maybe that's why an instructor told me that it's completely meaningless to learn more than two Irish dance tunes: one reel and one jig are perfectly enough.
 :D

Same sort of thing once happened at a session I was at, when a woman complained to the musicians that  they'd been playing the same tune all night, and could they play something different.
Thing was, although there was quite a lot of Irish played at this session, it wasn't all Irish by any means, and it included a fair smattering of slow English. So, it seems that all traditional music, not just Irish, sounds the same to some people.
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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2010, 04:40:48 PM »

Maybe that's why an instructor told me that it's completely meaningless to learn more than two Irish dance tunes: one reel and one jig are perfectly enough.
That's funny!

I recently bought an Irish session album made of over 100 tunes on iTunes for only $9.99. Trouble is, all tunes are played in unison by all audible instruments (concertina, fiddle, tin whistle) and all tunes of the same kind (i.e. jigs, reels) sound really similar! Apart from a handful typical tunes we can recognize in the lot...
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Andrew Culwell

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2010, 05:25:29 PM »

I do believe that in the Irish session community here in the states that there is a tendency to emphasize BPM (Beats Per Minute) and to that end learners and some midlevel and advanced players tend to think everything should be played at 125 BPM or more.  This varies wildly I went to a session in Asheville a couple weeks ago and they played every tune at a blistering rate.  As a learner I was discouraged and lost.  My local session is quite varied depending on the tune.  I also feel much is lost when we emphasize pace to the exclusion of all else. Whatever happened to individuality and interpetation?
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MadDogMurdock

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2010, 05:58:44 PM »

I am just starting out learning Irish style B/C and find that recording myself is one of the most useful tools for regulating tempo, and making tunes interesting.  While playing, although I tend to tap my toes and heels, I rarely notice changes in my tempo.  Recordings are not at all forgiving.  When listening back to what I've done I am often surprised to hear myself speeding up passages that I had thought I was playing in time.  I can then focus on regulating those areas and work to keep the tune steady. 

Recordings also make me realize how boring some of my playing can be.  I suspect I will always be improving on this.  I have a notion that if more players, of all styles, critically listened to their playing, tempos would slow, variation would blossom and the "it all sounds the same" symptoms (which I find nearly every style of music can be guilty of) would be lessened.   '

On the bright side...I am also often surprised by just how nicely I've pulled off a tune  :||:
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Howard Jones

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2010, 07:23:32 PM »

Hmmmph!  Pshaw!  I don't really understand where all this anti-going-fast stuff is coming from....  Playing fast most likely requires a degree of dexterity that takes a lot work to achieve and maintain - plus, even when you've achieved that, you've still got to squeeze the phrasing, articulation and musicality in there too.  If you consider that to be too easy, surely you're not being ambitious enough?

The problem is that most people who play fast in sessions haven't achieved the required degree of dexterity, nor are they able to bring in the musicality.  Even if they could, the majority of other people in the session definitely can't, so it degenerates into showing-off rather than sharing the music, which is what a session should be about.

Theo

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Re: The need for speed...
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2010, 11:23:51 PM »

Hmmmph!  Pshaw!  I don't really understand where all this anti-going-fast stuff is coming from....  Playing fast most likely requires a degree of dexterity that takes a lot work to achieve and maintain - plus, even when you've achieved that, you've still got to squeeze the phrasing, articulation and musicality in there too.  If you consider that to be too easy, surely you're not being ambitious enough?

The problem is that most people who play fast in sessions haven't achieved the required degree of dexterity, nor are they able to bring in the musicality.  Even if they could, the majority of other people in the session definitely can't, so it degenerates into showing-off rather than sharing the music, which is what a session should be about.



I think GbH had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he said that, but unfortunately the handlebar makes it hard to be sure.
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