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[TOKO]

Hellow everyone!
I play diatonique accordeon in Japan.
I prefer English and French trad.
I have been thinking how to play C minor tunes for years.
When we play C, G, Am and Dm, we usually use G/C melodeon.
And in the time D, G, Em and Am, in D/G maybe.
However, I do not know which type of key I have to use when playing C minor.
I used to play Irish music in C#/D.
Although I managed to play D minor tune, I couldn't.   
Could you let me know how to play C minor tunes?
Now I own D/G Castagnari Mory and G/C 2 row half made by B. Loffet.
Thank you for your coperation.

[michik]

for C minor you need  C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab and Bb.  
on the C/G:  C, D, F and G are on the main rows,
Eb, Ab (G#) and Bb should be on the accidentials row.

on the D/G:  C, D, G are on the main rows,
F, Eb, Ab (G#) and Bb should be on the accidentials row.
see http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/DG21plus5castagnari.gif
should be possible to play on inner and acidentals row only.

[rees]

C minor is easiest on a Bb/Eb melodeon.

[george garside]

or a CC#

[nemethmik]

how to play C minor tunes

Far the best is an (overhauled) C/F Hohner Victoria, Club III, or Liliput: inexpensive and great sound.

[Owen Woods]

It should be reasonably OK to play C minor stuff on a G/C, if you have the standard accidentals, in the same way that G minor is reasonably possible on a D/G. Otherwise a Bb/Eb would be the way to go.

[ganderbox]

Now I own D/G Castagnari Mory and G/C 2 row half made by B. Loffet.

how to play C minor tunes

Far the best is an (overhauled) C/F Hohner Victoria, Club III, or Liliput: inexpensive and great sound.

I own a D/G Castagnari Dony and a G/C 3 row Loffet, and also a C/F Hohner Erika.

My preference for playing in C minor would definitely be the G/C, as the fingering is fairly intuitive and the accidentals come easily to hand. My second choice would be the D/G.
I wouldn't use the C/F because the accidentals are less convenient, but other people who have different boxes with different layouts might not agree.

However, as others have said, by far the easiest would be a Bb/Eb.

[Owen Woods]

The problem with playing C minor on a standard D/G is that not only do you not have the Bb bass, you can't use G with the thirds cut out as a substitute a lot of the time as the Bb accidental is on the pull. The other problem is that you end up in the stratosphere, as the Eb accidental is in the upper octave, which is not massively nice to listen to and is less comfortable to play.

[nemethmik]

by far the easiest would be a Bb/Eb.

True 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSNc-tBoc00

[TOKO]

Thank you for great advice, everyone!
I am glad to hear many information.
I understand it is suitable to play C minor tune in B?/E?.
Both my D/G and G/C have accidental treble and bass, so I can play C minor as well as B?/E?.
I think that B?/E? melodeon is less common than D/G G/C, C/F.
To buy or not to buy that key...

referendce my playing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX64GnVlaYo&playnext_from=TL&videos=xrjzqDgTcFs
I played old Castagnari Mark D/G.

[juker]

Nice playing TOKO

[EeeJay]

Like Pauline, for C minor, I'd suggest something based on a G/C system... with more bass and a short - or indeed full - inner row of accidentals.

I owned an 'old style' Gaillard 2 row (with an interlinked half row) 3 voice 12 bass G/C for a while... which seemed happy enough in C, D, A and E minor... and D, F, G, and C major... and reasonable in Bb and Eb majors to a decent extent... For what it's worth, I attach a copy of the layout... most of the time I used the stop to cut the thirds out of the bass end...

referendce my playing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX64GnVlaYo&playnext_from=TL&videos=xrjzqDgTcFs

Now that is some really nice bass-end work there.

I reckon you'd be able to get a lot out of a 12 (or even 18) bass G/C/+...

Ed J

[Ziachmusi/Louise]

'old style' Gaillard 2 row

looks fairly similar to my Saltarelle Salterelle 21+5 in g/c

keyboard layout here:-
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3924.0;attach=3011;image

which I think is factory standard but not 100% sure as I bought secondhand

Does that mean I could play in all the mentioned keys if I was capable?

Louise

[ganderbox]

To buy or not to buy that key...

TOKO - your G/C Loffet (assuming it is a standard layout or similar) should have the notes and basses you need to play in C minor. If you want to do play fluently and with all the basses, however, you will need to spend some time and effort learning the fingerings and getting used to playing in that key.
The easier option is to buy a Bb/Eb, but it's up to you whether you think it's worth it. If you want to do a lot of playing in C minor then it probably will be. 
Perhaps it would be an idea to give it a try on the G/C and see how it works for you before you decide.

[ganderbox]

Does that mean I could play in all the mentioned keys if I was capable?

Louise

Yes - you just need time, patience, motivation, and a spare brain in case the old one wears out!

[EeeJay]

'old style' Gaillard 2 row

looks fairly similar to my Saltarelle Salterelle 21+5 in g/c...

Does that mean I could play in all the mentioned keys if I was capable?

Yes!

Honestly - it is possible. You just sometimes have to think beyond the rows... and plan the chords. TOKO - I missed out you had a G/C Loffet. If so, this might do the job... like I say, think beyond the rows...

I don't own a G/C at the moment (used to have two posh ones... before the 'Irish bug' bit me... ), but I'm tempted to get something like one of those Yvus 1 voicers... once he's got the 12 bass rig sorted out...

Bb/Eb is another solution... I own one myself - vintage Hohner- I like it for it's general 'mid register' feel more than anything else...

Ed J

[Nick Hudis]

My Loffet 3 row G/C with accidentals plays very nicely in C minor. You need some sneaky bellows changes going between Eb and F.   

[TOKO]

Thank you again, everyone!!
Exactly I own 2 1/2 row B. Loffet G/C/Accidental, 12bass 3 voices.
It has enough accidental key and bass to play C minor tune as you say.
But I would like to know which key(general tuning like G/C, D/G, C/F) I should use when I play uncommon tuning.

I don't play C minor tune very often.
I tend to listen French trad today.
The musicians often play as medley from C minor tune to C tune or from G minor to G.
On the other hand, in Irsh and English trad, this case is rare.
So I have a question how do these musician play those medley.
On movie like youtube et al, They purhaps have two melodeon.
These melodeons are maybe 2 1/2 and 3 row with 12 bass or more.
In most case, they play with vielle or cornemuse.
This is because G/C Vielle and G/C cornemuse has only g and c drone.
 
I am sorry but poor English... 

[ganderbox]

Your English is fine, Toko, and we know exactly what you mean.

Bagpipe and hurdy gurdy players do indeed often modulate from major to minor keys (like G to G minor), and although this suits their instruments perfectly, it's not always easy on a melodeon. Obviously you don't want to be changing boxes in the middle of a tune set if you can avoid it, so you have to find which one works best for both the major and minor keys.
Usually, with a 2 row + accidentals, it works best to play the major tune on the inside row and use the accidental row to help you play the minor part eg for G and G minor you would use a D/G box. If the basses are awkward for the minor part, you can just use the the G bass as a sort of intermittent drone, which fits well with the pipes and gurdies anyway.
You can, of course use a G/C, and play in G on the outside row and reach over to the accidentals for the minor part, but sometimes this can be a bit more awkward.
Sometimes, though, it works better to use the box which is happier playing in the minor key eg
 a C/F + accidentals plays well in G minor, and it isn't too difficult to play in G major either.

It depends very much on shape of the individual tunes which works best on which box, and you need to try them out to see which suits you.
You do of course need to play the basses with the thirds removed.

For playing in C and C minor, you would use a G/C to play it the first way, a C/F to play it the second way and an F/Bb to do it the third way!
A Bb/Eb box, although it's ideal for playing in C minor on it's own, wouldn't usually be the best for playing in both C and C minor.

I don't know if you play any Blowzabella tunes, but these are some that I play -
 Shave the Monkey in D/Dminor, on a D/G box (based on the outside row major key)
 Blowzabella in G/Gminor, on a D/G box (based on the inside row major key)
 Ice House Schottische in D/Dminor on a G/C box (based on the inside row minor key)

I hope this makes sense, and hope it helps.

p.s. Briefly, this means you can mostly use your G/C for playing in C & C minor, your D/G for playing in G and G minor, and whichever one works best for playing in D & D minor. You probably don't need to buy another box!
    

[EeeJay]

A lot of boxplayers in France these days are using G/C evolved 18 bass three rows (with a full inner row of accidentals). That's the key to how they modulate between parallel majors/minors so fluently. Clive mentioned in an earlier thread the French preference for Castagnari Handrys over Morys, basically because of the extended accidental range...

For a lot of French stuff - e.g. Morvan, Auvergnat - the drone instruments are based round G or C, so this system works.

However... most of the French tune sessions round these parts (of the UK) use the Bourbonnais drone tunings based on D. So faced with pretty much the same major/minor gurdy/pipes quandary, and with prior fluency with the semitone system (and an impartiality to carting multiple boxes about!), I settled on using a C#/D/G 18 bass beastie... which behaves well with parallel major/minor shifts.

Actually... a fellow sessioneer has just bought a Musette Bechonnet in Bb (least I think that's what it is...)... which means interludes of Bb major/minor stuff. It's interesting to see how this fits on C#/D/G... using Gilles Poitoux's ideas for using the semitone system for non-Irish tunes... just 'hammer down' with the melody, countermelody, or throw some syncopation about... there's usually someone else holding down a bass line anyway...

I don't know if you play any Blowzabella tunes, but these are some that I play -

Another nice tune used by Blowzabella is the Finnish Schottische... gently ambling along in D major... sucking all the D/G melodeon players in... then lurches over to G minor... ready to spit them all out again!

Ed J