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Author Topic: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010  (Read 20221 times)

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Theo

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2010, 01:30:59 PM »

So how does taking the first measure of The Breakdown and the 2nd measure of The Marquis of Lorne make it the Shipdham Hornpipe ? Is this common practice ?

Ian

Yes, and very confusing it can be for a northerner visiting E Anglia.  There also seem to be plenty of examples of tunes where the A or B part has been taken and has a completely new second half added, and for innocent tunes to be "East Anglicised" by changing the endings of phrases.  Anything usually played in A will be given a new key.  I think the Shipdham HP was played in C on Saturday.   All part of life's rich tapestry.
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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2010, 03:12:17 PM »

Ah, but would it not be just as confusing for an East Anglian to visit Northern parts ;)...and all those hills as well.

Ian
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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2010, 03:55:24 PM »

Anything usually played in A will be given a new key.  I think the Shipdham HP was played in C on Saturday.

Very likely - it can't have escaped your notice that Suffolk is the spiritual home of the 1-row C box.
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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2010, 04:16:37 PM »

not my vid but a nice little summery of the day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORb86vOehvQ

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2010, 04:20:04 PM »

Anything usually played in A will be given a new key.  I think the Shipdham HP was played in C on Saturday.

Very likely - it can't have escaped your notice that Suffolk is the spiritual home of the 1-row C box.


really?  I would never have guessed. :D
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2010, 09:41:41 PM »

I understand that Anahata, but did Percy Brown give a new name to this mix of A and B parts from different tunes or was it just referred to as a medley ?
In the East Anglian tunebook 'Before the Night Was Out', there are extensive notes about the tunes compiled by Katie Howson. For Shipdham Hornpipe (transcribed from the playing of Walter Bulwer not Percy Brown) Katie writes the following:

Another tune without a title, named after the village in Norfolk where Walter Bulwer lived all his life. It is related to The Breakdown in The Fiddler's Tune Book and the B-music is also used in the Marquis of Lorne (also known as The Sligo Fancy).

Walter Bulwer, and if I recall correctly, some other East Anglian musicians too, would sometimes string together favourite bits of tunes for step dancing. The resulting mixture might not have been given a title by Walter and, as has happened here, the title Shipdham Hornpipe has been invented subsequently by the musicians who have learned the particular combination aurally from Walter's playing.

'Before the Night Was Out' is not just a tunebook; it is a great resource of tune notes, biographies, discographies etc., Highly recommended!
Get it HERE!
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Anahata

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2010, 10:19:10 PM »

not my vid but a nice little summery of the day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORb86vOehvQ

Steve, I hope you've noticed that video briefly catches Mary and me in flagrante with your tune  :|bl
(about 4'19")
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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2010, 10:24:26 PM »

Adding to Steve's above, as with songs in Norfolk and Suffolk (and probably elsewhere), often where several singers or players met, tunes were considered to be 'someone's' property, especially if bought as a broadsheet or off another singer and it was an unwise person who sang or played anothers song or tune in their presence and if they felt equal to doing it out of their presence or after their demise it was a matter of honour to indicate who's tune it was, hence otherwise collected tunes (songs often had their own title especially if off a broadsheet or cylinder / disc so perhaps do not get quite so mangled) get known as for instance Cyril Doodahs polka by a player who had learned it from that source.

Having downloaded quite a lot of abc collections this is something which was clearly going on back in Victorian times to identify a myriad of hornpipes, the transcribers of GH Watson's collection have given local village names to what would otherwise be an un named tune.

Compound with the running together of bits of other tunes in a medley, the recordists such as the Howsons (gawd blessum) have had to identify the recording tracks in some logical way and the same naming shifts have entered into the present day.

I doubt there will ever be a 'definitive' list of folk tunes for this reason and the natural improvisation and alterations of style to suit the times simply continues what has been going on for a very long time.

I have often wondered how stable the tunes played for the longstanding village Morris teams has been - Kimbers playing is very characteristic but was it the same as his predecessors ?

Richard
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DRUMKILBO

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2010, 10:38:50 PM »

Thanks for that info Steve, I should have been able to put a name to the 2nd part of the Shipdam Hornpipe as I recorded the Sligo Fancy on my debut recording in 1983 and I know the Marquis of Lorne [not personally or intimately, but musically] from a Beltona 78 recording of May Cameron playing PA in the late 40s....May is still extant less than a mile from me, she played accordion in her father's band, Jim Cameron, at one time more famous than Jimmy Shand. May is credited with [or blamed for] being one of the first piano accordionists to play our type of music to an acceptable standard on the PA, and the funny thing is that she does it in a button key style, very staccatto etc...but then when she started in the late 1930s, she had only ever heard melodeons and button keys playing that type of music. These thoughts are drifting onto the the thread about playing the PA like a melodeon so I will desist.
Personally, I don't understand why a musician would take one bit of a tune and marry it with another, particularly with the two tunes mentioned as they are both crackers in their original form.

Ian.
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jb

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2010, 10:58:38 PM »

Personally, I don't understand why a musician would take one bit of a tune and marry it with another, particularly with the two tunes mentioned as they are both crackers in their original form.

Well, one possible reason, probably responsible for a lot of evolutionary change in folk music, is simply an inability to remember a tune entirely or exactly as one heard it. Why deny yourself a good A section just because you can't remember the B section you heard it with? Why not graft on a new B section or one from another tune? It might work as well as, if not better than, the original, especially for people who are hearing it for the first time.
A tune I came across and learned recently, and which I'm planning to post for Sept ThOTM, is an obvious cobbling-together of A and B sections not only from different tunes but from completely different traditions. But it works brilliantly as a whole.

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2010, 12:50:18 AM »

Personally, I don't understand why a musician would take one bit of a tune and marry it with another, particularly with the two tunes mentioned as they are both crackers in their original form.

Well, one possible reason, probably responsible for a lot of evolutionary change in folk music, is simply an inability to remember a tune entirely or exactly as one heard it. Why deny yourself a good A section just because you can't remember the B section you heard it with? Why not graft on a new B section or one from another tune?
I think you are quite close to the truth here, JB.
Walter Bulwer was quite advanced in age when he was recorded playing the two tunes which make up Shipdham Hornpipe. It's quite possible he muddled them up, which he might not have done when he was a younger man. 
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2010, 12:52:55 AM »

Steve, I hope you've noticed that video briefly catches Mary and me in flagrante with your tune  :|bl
(about 4'19")
Thank you - yes I did notice. And very nice it is too! I'm most gratified this tune is getting played and performed.  (:)
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islawight

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2010, 06:32:21 AM »

The first tune in the No 4 set is something found on the Posh Band's English CD - haven't got it to hand but it might be the unnamed 'Sussex Polka' from the Sussex Tune Book. Taz did a set of tunes ending with Sustead Schottische where the first one he announced as the Yarmouth Hornpipe I think? Not sure if it was this set though.

A

sooo that's
EATMT TMD - Scan Tester's Country Stepdance
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28348

EATMT TMD - Redwing
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28350

EATMT TMD - Percy Brown's Schottische
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28351

EATMT TMD - ?/Trip to Stowmarket
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28352

EATMT TMD - Shipdham Hornpipe
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28353

EATMT TMD - ?/Sustead Schottische
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28354

EATMT TMD - The Blooming Meadows/Paddy Carey's/Morgan Rattler/ Sally Sloane's Barndance
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=28355
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ladydetemps

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2010, 08:54:59 AM »


'Before the Night Was Out' is not just a tunebook; it is a great resource of tune notes, biographies, discographies etc., Highly recommended!
Get it HERE!
Classy plug there. ;) :P

not my vid but a nice little summery of the day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORb86vOehvQ

Steve, I hope you've noticed that video briefly catches Mary and me in flagrante with your tune  :|bl
(about 4'19")
Looks like after I left to go attempt joining in with the session again. I think I've spotted mum making a brief appearance.

Taz did a set of tunes ending with Sustead Schottische where the first one he announced as the Yarmouth Hornpipe I think? Not sure if it was this set though.

Got told its Yarmouth Breakdown.

Steve_freereeder

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2010, 09:00:45 AM »

The first tune in the No 4 set is something found on the Posh Band's English CD - haven't got it to hand but it might be the unnamed 'Sussex Polka' from the Sussex Tune Book. Taz did a set of tunes ending with Sustead Schottische where the first one he announced as the Yarmouth Hornpipe I think? Not sure if it was this set though.
No - sorry Ayla, it's not the Sussex Polka (which is here, and also in Dave Townsend's 'English Dance Music Book 1'.

The first two bars of the B-music are the same as the equivalent in the Whitehaven Volunteers, but there the resemblance ends.   

I've scoured all my tune books and haven't found it or else missed it.  :(
So we need you to search out your Posh Band CD and put us all out of misery.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 09:02:28 AM by Steve_freereeder »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2010, 09:11:46 AM »

Got told its Yarmouth Breakdown.
Yes - the first tune in your recording No. 6 is indeed the Yarmouth Breakdown. It's in Barry Callghan's tunebook Hardcore English p.27, said to be taken from the playing of Percy Brown. For some reason, we didn't include it in Before the Night Was Out.
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ladydetemps

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2010, 09:54:24 AM »

The first tune in the No 4 set is something found on the Posh Band's English CD - haven't got it to hand but it might be the unnamed 'Sussex Polka' from the Sussex Tune Book. Taz did a set of tunes ending with Sustead Schottische where the first one he announced as the Yarmouth Hornpipe I think? Not sure if it was this set though.
No - sorry Ayla, it's not the Sussex Polka (which is here, and also in Dave Townsend's 'English Dance Music Book 1'.

The first two bars of the B-music are the same as the equivalent in the Whitehaven Volunteers, but there the resemblance ends.   

I've scoured all my tune books and haven't found it or else missed it.  :(
So we need you to search out your Posh Band CD and put us all out of misery.


this was posted on C.net
A tune has been suggested
"hello
found at last its in the sussex tune book no 52 untitled
from "william aylmore" of west wittering sussex his book was dated 1796 to1818
is this any help.
cplayer "
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11720&pid=116173&st=0&#entry116173

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2010, 12:06:59 PM »

If it's the CD track I'm thinking of, no, it's not 'THE' Sussex polka but I think on the CD they have labelled it a Sussex polka as it is in the Sussex Tune Book and untitled as noted by the later contributer from c.net.

A

The first tune in the No 4 set is something found on the Posh Band's English CD - haven't got it to hand but it might be the unnamed 'Sussex Polka' from the Sussex Tune Book. Taz did a set of tunes ending with Sustead Schottische where the first one he announced as the Yarmouth Hornpipe I think? Not sure if it was this set though.
No - sorry Ayla, it's not the Sussex Polka (which is here, and also in Dave Townsend's 'English Dance Music Book 1'.

The first two bars of the B-music are the same as the equivalent in the Whitehaven Volunteers, but there the resemblance ends.   

I've scoured all my tune books and haven't found it or else missed it.  :(
So we need you to search out your Posh Band CD and put us all out of misery.


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Steve_freereeder

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2010, 12:35:18 PM »

If it's the CD track I'm thinking of, no, it's not 'THE' Sussex polka but I think on the CD they have labelled it a Sussex polka as it is in the Sussex Tune Book and untitled as noted by the later contributer from c.net.
Thanks, Ayla. That'll be it then  (:)
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rees

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Re: EATMT Traditional Music Day, Stowmarket, 4th September 2010
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2010, 01:53:12 AM »

The tune appeared as untitled on the Topic Album "English Country Music".
It was played by Walter Bulwer who lived in Shipdham.
Katie and Steve wrote the book "Before the Night Was Out"
They had to call the tune something.
I call it Walter Bulwer's Hornpipe and it's one of my favourite one-row melodeon tunes (even though Walter played it on the fiddle), so there.  ;)
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