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Author Topic: C#/D Half Row  (Read 5028 times)

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Old Leaky

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C#/D Half Row
« on: September 15, 2010, 09:41:18 PM »

Can anyone say what the extra notes on a typical (e.g. Saltaralle) C#/D with a 4 button half inside row might be? Any insights into what notes would give the best coverage for ITM (a C on the push, for example)? Anyone know how Conor Keane's 2+1/2 row box is tuned in this respect for instance? ???
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Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2010, 10:15:55 PM »

When I ordered my Serenellini 273 I based the half-row on the layout of a Saltarelle Connemara III in B/C, but jacked up a tone. It goes like this, starting with the lowest notes:

Push/Pull
E / F
G / G#
B / A
e / d

The point of the G# (which would be F# on B/C) is presumably to make the arpeggio of D easier - a bit of a bugbear on the B/C. Since E major is a less common key, less useful on C#/D.

Apart from that, this layout makes it possible to play the first octave in D completely in either direction (with the exception of low D).

Usefulness for ITM? I deliberately avoided making much use of the half-row for normal playing so that I wouldn't develop "nonstandard" habits. In other words I don't think any extra notes are essential for ITM.  (:)

The main benefit for me, which I do miss when playing a standard 2-row C#D, is the ability to play many more complete r/h chords - full G and B minor in both directions, for example. And partial ones too: ending a tune in A or esp. A dorian with the addition of the push E, the way I would use the same chord on fiddle, is a very nice touch to have up your sleeve.

Also the ability to use more drones and funky basses to accompany slow airs. For example to emulate Séamus Ennis' weird and sublime use of a low C on the regulators to hold against an A in the melody of "The Wounded Hussar." I used to do that on fiddle too, and felt very clever achieving it on box (in my basement) with an A pull on my 2½ row.

There isn't a push C, one might be useful I suppose, but since I didn't use the half-row in the playing of dance tunes, I don't really know. It would give you the ability to play a complete r/h chord of F major. I wouldn't sacrifice any of the other push notes in my layout for it though.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 10:21:19 PM by Steve Jones »
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Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 12:19:49 PM »

Pondering this while practising last night, it occurred to me that a C push on C#/D might be the equivalent of an F# pull on B/C. The dcA sequence that crops up in a lot of Irish tunes, reels esp. it seems, is possibly the most awkward commonly occurring sequence I have come across - it's a definite challenge to get the c to sound cleanly at warp speed, and the fingering tends to be less than elegant, too.

Microbot

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 04:05:23 PM »

Hi Steve and Leaky and All,

A few months ago I set up a Liliput in C#/D for a player - we discussed the half-row of 4 buttons and in the end decided on going with a C#/D/D# pattern. However, the 1st accidental button lies adjacent to the F#/G of the D-row. That meant that the D# scale had to start on the "second button of the octave", as it were - this means that the 4 buttons of the half-row play G/G# ; A#/C ; D#/D ;G/F. spatially, these are in exactly the positions they would be in on a full C#/D/D# instrument.

Part of the rationale was that the player was already used to the C#/D/D# system, so this was to him an easy transfer, although it had only these 8 notes from the D# scale.

He really likes the instrument, but I've often wondered what the ideal layout for a 2.5 row C#/D would be, with a view to the tunes and the finger patterns of Irish Music. So I'm really interested in this thread.

The Liliput itself plays absolutely beautifully - the instrument was originally a C/F but converted very wellinto C#/D, although I had to source some reeds from a Bb/Eb Liliput - which then became a similar B/C/C# instrument!

cheers!

Mike R
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Owen Woods

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 04:19:06 PM »

Hi Steve and Leaky and All,

A few months ago I set up a Liliput in C#/D for a player - we discussed the half-row of 4 buttons and in the end decided on going with a C#/D/D# pattern. However, the 1st accidental button lies adjacent to the F#/G of the D-row. That meant that the D# scale had to start on the "second button of the octave", as it were - this means that the 4 buttons of the half-row play G/G# ; A#/C ; D#/D ;G/F. spatially, these are in exactly the positions they would be in on a full C#/D/D# instrument.

Part of the rationale was that the player was already used to the C#/D/D# system, so this was to him an easy transfer, although it had only these 8 notes from the D# scale.

He really likes the instrument, but I've often wondered what the ideal layout for a 2.5 row C#/D would be, with a view to the tunes and the finger patterns of Irish Music. So I'm really interested in this thread.

The Liliput itself plays absolutely beautifully - the instrument was originally a C/F but converted very wellinto C#/D, although I had to source some reeds from a Bb/Eb Liliput - which then became a similar B/C/C# instrument!

cheers!

Mike R

Was that for Tim Edey? He's the only one that I've heard of playing a C#DD#.
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Microbot

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 07:11:33 PM »

Hi Ukebert,

No, not T E, it was for a lovely chap rejoicing in the very splendid name of Hunter Murray, a player in the US... it's a lovely red Liliput too.

By the way Ukebert, that's a really snappy Liberty Bell - let's hear it for big hands and long fingers! I'm still 'having a go' at the tune, driving everyone here nuts. But what I want to do with it isn't fluent enough yet... and I keep hearing semitones that I haven't put in - and once I've heard 'em they gotta go in! Groan...

Any thoughts on that C#/D/D# layout for 2.5 rows?

cheers

Mike
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Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 08:08:05 PM »

Any thoughts on that C#/D/D# layout for 2.5 rows?

With your layout, you end up with 2 reversals of notes used in common keys (G and D). If you're seeking to maximize fluidity and avoid bellows changes in the first octave, they would come in very handy. You'd get F#GA push triangles in both octaves. On the pull you'd get Bcde, giving you close to B/C fluidity in the midrange.

You'd also get extra fluidity with 5 notes used in rarer keys, not sure how that would work in practice though and I'm not going to sit here and work out the sequences in front of my screen.  ;)

At any rate the fluidity possibilities in common keys are fewer than in my layout.

You'd still gain a few useful r/h chords. You'd get full Bm,  Gmaj and Emaj chords out of it (all in one direction only). Again, fewer possibilities, at least in common keys, than in my layout above.

You'd have a certain logic on your side though.

Other possibilities that occur to me: simply make the half-row a partial row of C: E/F G/A c/B e/d

In fact, with hindsight, this would be quite a bit more useful than the layout I blindly transposed from the Connemara B/C. I'd have a C push, the A pull would be better positioned than it is at present, and I wouldn't really miss the G#.

The chief benefit would be to make playing in Dm a lot easier, at least in the first octave.

You live and learn. But then, my priority is mastering the standard C#/D layout, not trying to sound more like a B/C player.  ;)

BTW, Yves Hélie, in seeking to maximize the possibilities of his 1½-row design discussed here), didn't opt for a D/C# or D/D# configuration, but something with no duplicates, I think. Not sure what his own layout is and I suspect it has a few illogicalities in it. (He'll supply the half-row with whatever the customer wants, of course).

[Edited to remove erroneous material because I misread the diagram, seeing a C on the push instead of where it is, on the pull. Duh.]

« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 08:15:46 PM by Steve Jones »
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Microbot

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 08:48:54 PM »

Thanks for that input Steve! As you know Im not by nature a C#/D player and I think it takes a person who knows a system inside out to consider the pros and cons of various options.

cheers!

Mike
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Old Leaky

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 10:15:41 AM »

Thanks for all your input - plenty of food for thought.  I should have explained that I have recently acquired (via eBay) a 23 button 2.5 row C#/D and I plan some mods to the half-row but didn't how if any standard had been set. I'm still pondering...

The new box also has a 12 unisonoric bass set up like a Stradella chromatic system, sort of. I have in mind a few tweaks for this too (coming your way soon, Theo!). I'll create a new thread on that subject...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 12:40:19 PM by Old Leaky »
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Old Leaky

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 10:09:30 PM »

I'm still pondering...

Taking the following as my starting position i.e. the way it's tuned now (by the previous owner):

              (bellows)
push   B    G    B    g    (knee)
pull     D    G#  A    d

This is what I now plan, with only 2 notes changed:

              (bellows)
push   E    G    B    C    (knee)
pull     D    G#  A    d  

I'm not really in a great position to explain my ration(of)ale for the push E. It's more intuition than logic. The push C, however, I'm happy with.

I'm not sure what the convention is to show relative pitch so the bold B denotes it's lower than my starting "doh" D.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 10:19:04 PM by Old Leaky »
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Theo

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 10:18:46 PM »

I think I would keep the push notes as they are then you have the consistency of push B and G in two octaves.  As you know I play D/G, but I find that I often cross to the G row in tunes in D to get the push B in order to play a Bm chord.
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Old Leaky

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 10:23:49 PM »

Thanks Theo, we can discuss such options later... ;)

I take it you've also seen this?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 10:26:58 PM by Old Leaky »
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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 02:49:46 PM »

Hello all,
I reply to an old topic, because I'm also considering to get a 2.5 rows c#/d, and found this topic quite interesting. I believe the main point of the third row is to have useful pull notes which are on the push (and vice versa). To choose the 3rd row, I've decided to count a bit : considering the main keys used would be D, G, A (and C, to a lesser extent), those keys have A, D, E and B in common. On a typical C#/D we've got A and D on the push and B and E on the pull. We would therefore need those note on the opposite direction. C# and F# are quite recurring note too, but the usual C#/D deals well with it.  In those keys, the G is also often encountered, so we would also need a push G. To a lesser extent, we could also need pull F and G# and a push C.
Let's summarise what would be useful on a third row :
push : E B G C
pull : A D F G#
... making 8 notes, fortunately, on a 4 buttons third row, we can make it ! In order to have the 3rd row's notes near the original ones, what do you think of the following plan ?

(bellows)
pushGBEC(knee)
pullG#ADF

Yes, I've decided to ditch the Bb and Eb (perhaps I'm wrong). The notes chosen are those corresponding to the middle of the keyboard (the B and the A are the same than the B and A on a same button on the 2d row), so I also say goodbye to the lower notes.

On the bass-side, I'm considering to use this layout : http://malomorvan.free.fr/claviers/basses.gif (sorry, the notes are noted in the continental fashion).

Thanks in advance
Y.

Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 02:23:14 PM »

Salut Yannick,

I can't comment much on the bass diagram you linked to because I'm not sure I understand it. Do the buttons sound individual notes only? If so, the most glaring problem would seem to be that chords of D - major, minor, and "thirdless" - would be very awkward, since your la and fa bécarre are at the bottom end and your ré at the top. Chords of F# (major and minor) would also be awkward. Otherwise, it looks quite ingenious.

As for the half-row, without seeing where the buttons lie in relation to the D row, it's hard to judge how they are positioned. Your choice of notes is similar to my suggested partial half-row in C major, except that you include the G#. I wouldn't like to have the C nearer the knee than the d and e as you have it.

I think that to make effective use of the half-row you have to adopt fingering habits used by 3-row players, which feel very foreign to me as a dedicated C#/D player, and for the sake of a few reversals, I'm not very interested. I do like to have the extra r-h chord possibilities though, but I wouldn't seek out a 2½ row box if I could get everything else I want (basses, voices) in a 2 row.

Tiens-nous au courant de ton projet!
Steve

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 03:45:06 PM »

Hello,
Thanks for your advice, I looked at the C#/D/G layout, and I've modified a bit my layout.
Regarding the basses, I forgot to mention that I'm going to transpose it to the key of D, which will be *a lot* easier to play with and to understand. Here is the diagram
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/13azmteZZufMqk2M3JBJt5OJSzwQbfSqQHIVa-pUvayQ/edit?hl=fr
I've put in red the notes that differ from a D/G layout : the most common notes E D B A (and G) can therefore be played as in a fourth-separated layout, which is just fine for a continental player like me (I have reverted the E and the D on the 5th/6th button of the inner row). For the left-hand side, it makes some usual chords easier (even if I'm not going to play a lot of chords), and here is how it works : the outer row has common notes, the nearer you get from the bellows, the less common are the notes (the inner row has C F Eb and Bb). The basses are unisonoric basses, with a stop to switch the low voice off.
I hope it is clearer like this, thanks for the advices

(btw Steve, are you the Steve that send me audio files of box players some years ago, after a thread on a button box mailing-list ?)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 03:50:45 PM by daoudonek »
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Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 10:27:07 PM »

OK, Yannick, that's a bit clearer. But while a D maj chord is now nice and easy, Em and C would seem to require contortionism. Perhaps you won't need them much for the music you play... for me, playing Irish music on C#/D, I wouldn't want to be without either.

(btw Steve, are you the Steve that send me audio files of box players some years ago, after a thread on a button box mailing-list ?)

Hmm, very possibly! But I can't find any trace in my old emails... or my neurons. :-D

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Re: C#/D Half Row
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 11:27:11 PM »

I know some chords are tricky, but considering the speed required, composing the chords while playing an average reel will be quite impossible  ;D. Besides,  when playing Irish or Quebec tunes, I use the left hand very sparsely (either to "backup" the nearby guitarist or to reproduce the regulator's changes a uillean-piper would do). As always, I guess it depends a lot on the player :).
Examining the 3rd row, it allows some right hand chord playing quite easily, which I find helpful.
Quote
Hmm, very possibly! But I can't find any trace in my old emails... or my neurons. :-D
Searched a bit, and found a hit : on september, 2007, a thread discussing c#/d vs. b/c, anyway, that does not matter much, but still, it's a small world  ;)

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