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Author Topic: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale  (Read 22050 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2010, 08:11:47 AM »

There's not that many chords you can do on the RH of a one-row. On the push only one even, or am I missing something now?

True, but you don't have to play the chords en block! Good one rowers arpeggio in these diatonic chords "keeping the tune going" as Steve says. Magic! I call it hearing notes that aren't there and deeply admire them for it. With this slight proviso one-row box is pure modal diatonic in every sense.

Add a second row and you have much more leeway. Add a reversed note button and all is there in theory (though voicing might not be to your taste).
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2010, 08:47:37 AM »

There's not that many chords you can do on the RH of a one-row. On the push only one even, or am I missing something now?
True, but you don't have to play the chords en block! Good one rowers arpeggio in these diatonic chords "keeping the tune going" as Steve says. Magic! I call it hearing notes that aren't there and deeply admire them for it.
Chris - Yes that's the sort of thing I meant! You've expressed it better than I could have done. There is a lot of truth in 'hearing notes that aren't there'.

For example, on a one-row tuned in D, on the push you have D major in root position and both inversions, but you also have fragments of F#m and octave As, so you can fudge those too. You do have more possibilities on the pull notes; Amaj, A7, Em, Gmaj, open Bs for Bm, C#m, etc.

And as Chris has indicated, you don't just have to play block chords. With arpeggio-type accompaniment, especially if you can involve bellows changes within the chord, you have even more choices. A good one-row player, just by including an extra note or two in the RH in addition to the melody, can hint at passing chords and harmonies, in such a way that the listener's ear 'fills in the gaps'.

That's why many melodeon players would classify the one-row as a specialist's and not a beginner's instrument. Personally, I wouldn't be so pedantic to insist on this viewpoint every time, but generally for western European traditional music, there is a lot of sense in beginners starting out on a two-row and only coming to the one-row after they've got a bit of experience under their belt.
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Anahata

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2010, 09:05:26 AM »

That's why many melodeon players would classify the one-row as a specialist's and not a beginner's instrument.
I'd heard all the mythology about 1-rows needing some special magic, but when I got my first one I just made the best I could of it. Faking chords, notes that aren't really there, and the rest of at all just seem to happen. Also playing a more-or-less melodic counterpoint - I wouldn't call it chords, but bits that follow the tune in thirds and sixths are very effective on a 1-row.

Quote
there is a lot of sense in beginners starting out on a two-row and only coming to the one-row after they've got a bit of experience under their belt.

That's what I did. Except I Started on PA and then B/C/C# before getting my first pokerwork.
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Scallyanglo

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2010, 09:48:34 AM »

I'm finding this all very interesting . . . at this site you can hear any chord or scale from around the world
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/
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george garside

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2010, 10:08:56 AM »

There's not that many chords you can do on the RH of a one-row. On the push only one even, or am I missing something now?
[  .

 , there is a lot of sense in beginners starting out on a two-row and only coming to the one-row after they've got a bit of experience under their belt.

Agree with all that has been said about faking or whatever on the one row but would question ;the need to theorise over chords , or lack of them in 'correct' form  when the fun comes from experimenting to get different sounds ;& rhythms & working on the basis of if it sounds good it is good.  As for starting on 2 row there is a lot to be said for it as 2 rows are usually easier to handle than one rows and whilst not getting the '4 stop' effect of the one row everything else can be done 'on the row' on a 2 row.   



It is because of the 'on the row'  (or one row) extra right hand rhythm & chords of one form or another that    I often use a 3 voice lmm  2 row played mostly on the row for low cost  bouncy English ceilidh's  & for what its worth I think a great deal of this built in advantage is lost  by  exessive 'cross rowing'.   
It is also the reason why a BC whilst a great 'melody' box just doesn't have the same bounce for your buck     as a true melodeon i.e. a one row.

george
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waltzman

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2010, 12:39:56 PM »


That's why many melodeon players would classify the one-row as a specialist's and not a beginner's instrument. Personally, I wouldn't be so pedantic to insist on this viewpoint every time, but generally for western European traditional music, there is a lot of sense in beginners starting out on a two-row and only coming to the one-row after they've got a bit of experience under their belt.

I never have understood this notion since a two-row can be played as a one row and most two-row beginners start out playing 'on the row' and consider playing across the rows a difficult step up.  Is there any one row technique that cannot pe played on a two row?
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Anahata

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2010, 01:00:09 PM »

Is there any one row technique that cannot pe played on a two row?

Because 1-rows (especially Hohners) have a particular sound which is tonally vague, e.g. the LH chords are not abundantly clear and the RH is playing on three octaves at once, you can get away with playing things on a 1-row that just don't sound right on a typical two row.

For example, on a C box you can play a G chord where you really needed an F, and it doesn't clash nearly as badly as on a two row.

Or again on a C box I can pretend I have a low A by playing the A an octave higher in the C music of Will Atkinson's Schottische, where doing that on a two voice box would be a much more obvious jump of a seventh up that was supposed to be a step down of one note. (,B A ,B  representing ,B ,A ,B)

On my Castagnari Max I taped out the high reed of the bass notes because they were too well defined. I didn't really want D and A, I wanted "grunt" and "different grunt" and that's what you get with Hohner.

In many other ways we've found that the sound of a 4-stop 1-row is just right for some song accompaniments, where a two-row or Anglo concertina that can play more chords, doesn't create the right sonic atmosphere.
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Lester

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2010, 02:03:12 PM »

I wanted "grunt" and "different grunt" and that's what you get with Hohner.

 ;D

Owen Woods

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2010, 10:15:13 PM »

I disagree with some of your significant chords (:) For me the significant chord for the Dorian is IV, for the Lydian I disagree, I think that it's the diminished. Aeolian is VI, the Locrian, which isn't a true church mode has the half diminished, which is an incredibly significant chord in jazz. I'm not sure that the +9 is really necessary, but tastes differ.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2010, 08:19:56 AM »

We are off Greek modes here and into jazz. Their 'lochrian' chord gets sort of blurred with the Altered (often either works) scale, and their chord is variably written as C#min7b5,b9 and C#min7b5,#9.  The 9th is used to imply the following chord - minor if b9 and major if #9.

Lydian and diminished?  Perhaps depends a bit whether you hear 'C#' or 'Db' against the G tonic so the context of adjacent notes matters. However in G we have G*, A, B*,C#* - and three* of those are in the augmented scale  ???  

It's interesting (though rather  challenging IME) to explore the 'Lydian augmented' where the D is also sharpened a semitone. Bottom half of this scale is augmented, then top half a diminished run.  It's another  mode of melodic minor.  But we really do digress ....


« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 08:25:04 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Owen Woods

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2010, 09:05:13 PM »

We are off Greek modes here and into jazz. Their 'lochrian' chord gets sort of blurred with the Altered (often either works) scale, and their chord is variably written as C#min7b5,b9 and C#min7b5,#9.  The 9th is used to imply the following chord - minor if b9 and major if #9.

Lydian and diminished?  Perhaps depends a bit whether you hear 'C#' or 'Db' against the G tonic so the context of adjacent notes matters. However in G we have G*, A, B*,C#* - and three* of those are in the augmented scale  ???  

It's interesting (though rather  challenging IME) to explore the 'Lydian augmented' where the D is also sharpened a semitone. Bottom half of this scale is augmented, then top half a diminished run.  It's another  mode of melodic minor.  But we really do digress ....

Yes, ignore the diminished, that was my head not functioning quite correctly!

I recently discovered the double harmonic mode, which I used to some effect in the play I did in Edinburgh. I've been meaning to make a recording of it actually, on piano as I can't get the bass with the box.
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Owen Woods

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2010, 06:06:50 PM »

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Steve C.

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2010, 07:51:14 PM »

Music Theory Humor

A C, an E-flat, and a G go into a bar. The bartender says, "Sorry, but we don't serve minors."

So, the E-flat leaves, and the C and the G have an open fifth between them. After a few drinks, the fifth is diminished; the G is out flat.

An F comes in and tries to augment the situation, but is not sharp enough.

A D comes into the bar and heads straight for the bathroom saying, "Excuse me. I'll just be a second."

An A comes into the bar, but the bartender is not convinced that this relative of C is not a minor.

Then the bartender notices a B-flat hiding at the end of the bar and exclaims, "Get out now! You're the seventh minor I've found in this bar tonight."

The E-flat, not easily deflated, comes back to the bar the next night in a 3-piece suit with nicely shined shoes. The bartender (who used to have a nice corporate job until his company downsized) says, "You're looking sharp tonight, come on in! This could be a major development." This proves to be the case, as the E-flat takes off the suit - and everything else - and stands there au natural.

Eventually, the C sobers up, and realizes in horror that he's under a rest. The C is brought to trial, is found guilty of contributing to the diminution of a minor, and is sentenced to 10 years of DS without Coda at an upscale correctional facility. On appeal, however, the C is found innocent of any wrongdoing, even accidental, and that all accusations to the contrary are bassless.

The bartender decides, however, that since he's only had tenor so patrons, the soprano out in the bathroom, and everything has become alto much treble, he needs a rest -- and closes the bar.

 copywrite: Martha Lewis
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2010, 08:38:00 AM »

Very droll  :D  We'll be in touch ....

An infectious little tune - Le 'Lézard' - and a very subtle arrangement of Gilles Chabenat's 'Mazurka des Ecoliers'...  Just love his style... classy... 8)  Ed J

Yummy  8) A very handy example, from a master player. That mazurka is one of the most popular in France. I usually play it in session friendly Em - but the tune runs with a Cnatural. It is using my G-row notes. E is the 6th note of the G scale so it's Aeolian .. the "soft" minor

[analysis]
  Interestingly Cyrille is also playing it in Em! But on his melodeon C/G the G row is outside - and that minor is 'on the push' (so would be Bm on our kit).  I don't think he's using 'accidentals' at all. I think he just reaches into his extras - in this case a reversed F#/G to facilitate runs (not often!) or to get to chord extensions that aren't available on the rows.

I like particularly when he clashes F# with G to get a minorb9 effect at about 3'20 . F#min is the "II" chord in Emaeolian and is "VII" relative to the G (outer) row notes he's using.

   "II" of Em or "VII" of Gmaj (count it) the dark lochrian F#,A,C,E aka F#min7b5,b9

The magic is that Brotto doesn't actually play this chord, or even the musically key notes within it. These key notes are F#+C - 3-tone interval - dominance.  When he plays F#,G in the context of Emaolian we 'hear' the more complete chord behind them and 'feel' it wanting resolution back to E.  (You could also call it a sus9 chord)

There are loads of other things going on to make this performance so good, but I don't hear him using a single 'accidental'.  Pure modal approach.
[Thus Endeth the Lesson]  ;)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 08:42:22 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2010, 10:32:35 PM »

And here it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2qwBup1vn4

>:E

Bravo to Chris for sharing ear-opening theory, and for providing the venue for ukebert's parody. Thanks ukebert for helping me forget how the original melody goes!

I was originally drawn to Irish music for what I now know to be the mixolydian tunes. I always enjoyed how they made me feel like I skipped the bottom step on the staircase.
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Owen Woods

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2010, 02:13:11 AM »

And here it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2qwBup1vn4

>:E

Bravo to Chris for sharing ear-opening theory, and for providing the venue for ukebert's parody. Thanks ukebert for helping me forget how the original melody goes!

I was originally drawn to Irish music for what I now know to be the mixolydian tunes. I always enjoyed how they made me feel like I skipped the bottom step on the staircase.

You're welcome (:) It's a fun conceit, isn't it :P It worked well as a sinister background air for one of the Admiral's scenes.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2010, 09:12:20 AM »

Bravo to Chris for sharing ear-opening theory, and for providing the venue for ukebert's parody. Thanks ukebert for helping me forget how the original melody goes!

While it 'might' have been a parody .. the 'double harmonic' which I know as 'flamenco' or 'arab' scale is perfectly kosher (whoops!) respectable, though it's from harmonic minor, not diatonic minor scale. Ukebert provides a splendid example of how playing the same key sequence but 'starting in the wrong place' totally changes a tune. 

If he'd played Bb's instead of B's it would have been our bog standard mode 3 and playable on a one row (in Eb!).  Is this traditional?  Look up the Rollo Woods version of 'nutting girl'


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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2010, 09:36:52 AM »

Hmmm, that's quite intriguing - explains why some Em-named tunes have a C# instead! The only explanation I'd ever been able to attain previously on asking was that, 'it sometimes happens with English folk tunes'...
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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2010, 12:50:20 PM »

"It sometimes happens in English Folk Songs"

For more info on this, theres a fascinating chart in the introduction to Bronson's Tunes from the Child Balllads, which shows how modal inflection tends to work with oral/aural transmission.

Cheers,
J

Chris Ryall

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Re: The 'modes' of the diatonic scale
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2010, 12:56:44 PM »

Hmmm, that's quite intriguing - explains why some Em-named tunes have a C# instead! The only explanation I'd ever been able to attain previously on asking was that, 'it sometimes happens with English folk tunes'...

It can get even more complicated. Went to a lecture from Jean Francois Vrod (who sometimes plays with Chris Wood). In the Auvergne the fiddlers may use C# going up and C natural coming down. I think that's perhaps leaving the modal concept, but it seems all is possible - they are very trad
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