Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[OwenG]

[In the Auvergne the fiddlers may use C# going up and C natural coming down.

Dredging the depths of my memory for Grade 5 Theory, isn't that the melodic minor?

[Owen Woods]

[In the Auvergne the fiddlers may use C# going up and C natural coming down.

Dredging the depths of my memory for Grade 5 Theory, isn't that the melodic minor?

Not necessarily. Melodic minor has the C# and the Dnat coming up and the D# and the Cnat coming down. There might be a name for the dorian going up and the aeolian going down, but if there is then I don't know what it is!

The melodic minor was something that I never understood. You have to learn the melodic minor scale for every note when you do grades and I still have no idea why.

Bravo to Chris for sharing ear-opening theory, and for providing the venue for ukebert's parody. Thanks ukebert for helping me forget how the original melody goes!

While it 'might' have been a parody .. the 'double harmonic' which I know as 'flamenco' or 'arab' scale is perfectly kosher (whoops!) respectable, though it's from harmonic minor, not diatonic minor scale. Ukebert provides a splendid example of how playing the same key sequence but 'starting in the wrong place' totally changes a tune. 

If he'd played Bb's instead of B's it would have been our bog standard mode 3 and playable on a one row (in Eb!).  Is this traditional?  Look up the Rollo Woods version of 'nutting girl'

I can play it perfectly well on my 2 row using the accidentals, but don't have the bass. What is the Rollo Woods version of nutting girl? Ashamed to admit that I don't know, he's my grandfather so I probably should (I refuse to believe that there are 2 people in the morris world called Rollo )

[OwenG]

Not necessarily. Melodic minor has the C# and the Dnat coming up and the D# and the Cnat coming down . . .The melodic minor was something that I never understood. You have to learn the melodic minor scale for every note when you do grades and I still have no idea why.

Me neither (obviously!)

[Anahata]

The melodic minor was something that I never understood. You have to learn the melodic minor scale for every note when you do grades and I still have no idea why.

Why melodic minor? Because there's a lot of music written that way?
Why every note? Because... well, the same reason...

The approach to technique for classical music is to find exercises like my cello teacher's beguiling description of the Piatti Caprices: "when you can play these, you'll be able to play anything"

[Owen Woods]

The melodic minor was something that I never understood. You have to learn the melodic minor scale for every note when you do grades and I still have no idea why.

Why melodic minor? Because there's a lot of music written that way?
Why every note? Because... well, the same reason...

The approach to technique for classical music is to find exercises like my cello teacher's beguiling description of the Piatti Caprices: "when you can play these, you'll be able to play anything"

There is a lot of music written with the scale going up different to the scale going down? Really? If it is then I haven't noticed it in 16 years of playing classical piano.

Anyway, scales and arpeggios are pointless. We are forced to learn them, even though they are the easiest of all technical exercises. It would be much more useful if we were to learn technical studies instead, like I did for my Gr 8 clarinet.

[Chris Ryall]

There seem to be two 'melodics'  One is where you vary the 6th note, sort of as per above. I was told about this one in school.

In jazz they seem to do it differently and play minor scale first four notes and then the major scale!  Put another way they regard MM as major diatonic with a simple minored 3^rd.  I'ver seen people impro on this simply, but in practice the first four notes are maintained .. with anything goes for 5, 7 and 7.

The real importance of jazz melodic lies in its modes - especially the last one which is the infamous altered scale. However they're all regarded as 'fluid runners' - loads on the web eg http://www.jazztheorylessons.com/2009/02/the-jazz-melodic-minor-scale/

but we digress

[accordion criminal]

Bravo to Chris for sharing ear-opening theory, and for providing the venue for ukebert's parody. Thanks ukebert for helping me forget how the original melody goes!

While it 'might' have been a parody .. the 'double harmonic' which I know as 'flamenco' or 'arab' scale is perfectly kosher (whoops!) respectable, though it's from harmonic minor, not diatonic minor scale. Ukebert provides a splendid example of how playing the same key sequence but 'starting in the wrong place' totally changes a tune. 

Because I thought ukebert's rendition was humorous, I called it a parody. :) This is my understanding of parody:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody#Music

[Owen Woods]

Because I thought ukebert's rendition was humorous, I called it a parody. :) This is my understanding of parody:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody#Music

Don't worry, it was intended as a parody

[Chris Ryall]

Because I thought ukebert's rendition was humorous, I called it a parody. :) This is my understanding of parody:

Don't worry, it was intended as a parody

Hmm - not one I'd ever come across - but then I'm not the one doing A level music. I've been parodied (as per C21^st meaning - mimicked with humour) in France and for using what they advised was C17^th language, so it serves me right  

Anyway, scales and arpeggios are pointless. We are forced to learn them, even though they are the easiest of all technical exercises. It would be much more useful if we were to learn technical studies instead, like I did for my Gr 8 clarinet.

Pointless? Well not at my level, or trying to play in Cm on a melodeon. I quite agree they "aren't music" but the scales are the tracks that train runs on, and arpeggios are a good way of getting along - at least as far as  the next bar. You could even think of the dominant chords as "points" - to switch track - if you wanted to digress 

[Owen Woods]

Pointless? Well not at my level, or trying to play in Cm on a melodeon. I quite agree they "aren't music" but the scales are the tracks that train runs on, and arpeggios are a good way of getting along - at least as far as  the next bar. You could even think of the dominant chords as "points" - to switch track - if you wanted to digress 

And if you want to extend the metaphor, although some may like running on nice predictable tracks, switching between them always at the proper place, that's fine. I'd much rather go off the rails

[Chris Ryall]

Also 'Signals' like A7^b9 suggesting a move into Dm  A7 or  A7⁹ 'indifferent' 

   A7^#9 (an evil chord, but all there on y'r standard D/G box) screaming "D major NOWr" 

    .. and we need a Fat Controller 

[Howard Jones]

This site is rather useful:

http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

It shows all the chords you could possibly want, plus a huge range of scales, including the modes we've been discussing and some 'exotic' scales (Balinese, anyone?).  It shows the notes and intervals, so it helps to understand how these chords are built up.

I've linked to the 'piano' page but it will also show these on a guitar fretboard, in a variety of tunings. 

[Chris Ryall]

The diatonic modes are IMHO the most important once for us  - axiomatically the notes are there on our keyboard and it's great fun finding where the runs go.

Once you wander off (as this thread sort of has) into modes of harmonic or melodic minor (eg their major relatives) or even more exotic stuff as described above you might as well be playing a CBA. That sort of thing is (sort of) trivial there as it's a matter of teaching your fingers keyboard patterns. On a diatonic 2½ you have to be crafty.