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Author Topic: New or used instrument for beginners?  (Read 4586 times)

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William

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New or used instrument for beginners?
« on: October 22, 2010, 11:40:33 PM »

Hello.
I can play a harmonica reasonably well (I'm told) but I love the sound of most melodeons.

 I can play a simple piano accordion badly, but the piano keys occasionally 'traps' one finger, which then hurts like hell. The buttons never do this. It doesn't encourage regular practice..

The Hohner D/G Pokerwork seems ideal to me and looks great. I've been advised by a local (Cornwall) melodeon tutor to buy a used instrument, because they're less 'stiff' to play. He also feels that a cheaper, used instrument can always be sold on, when I've a better idea of what I might want, later on.

I'm not sure about this so I'd appreciate some additional views.

Many thanks,

William
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Barry J

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2010, 11:47:06 PM »

Hi William.

I'm in a similar position to yourself (i.e. beginner melodeon player).

I got caught out when I started concertina by buying a beginners model. Within a few months, I wanted to trade up as it was holding me back, so I had to get a better instrument - I lost money on the basic model.

I didn't want to make the same mistake with the melodeon. The problem with secondhand is finding a good one (and recognising it).

My advice is listen to all the advice and then go with your heart.

Remember, advice is often subjective.
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Theo

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2010, 12:10:00 AM »

Yes a good secondhand Hohner pokerwork or Erica will take you a long way down the learning path.
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Marje

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2010, 08:51:53 AM »

I'm sure it's tempting to spend all you can afford on a new box, but I'd go along with the advice you were given - try a second-hand box first. Sure, you may want to trade up in a year or so, but you'll have lost less than if you'd bought a new one and still got it wrong.

There are several important variables - the overall sound(s) of the music, the accidentals (or lack of), the ease of playing (including air-button and bellows movement), weight, type of keyboard/buttons, etc, and you won't get them all right first time. Defer the choice as long as you can by trying other boxes (from friends, in the shop) to get the feel of them, but don't regard your first melodeon as a choice of life. It may turn out to be so, but you'll quite likely want something slightly different once you've been playing for some months.
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pete /acorn

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2010, 09:17:22 AM »

Hi,
If you buy pokerwork or Erica they are always a good bet not to trade and keep because at some time you may well want to play outdoors and would be loathed to take out an expensive pride and joy.
Unless you have someone who can go with you and advise on a private purchase I would suggest going to a specialist and buying a fully checked over or serviced box and pay a bit more.
If you want to take a gamble I suggest you have a top figure in mind and take off rebuild cost and stick to that,Theo or Rees on this forum will best advise on servicing cost,they may well have just the box for you in stock.
Even people in the know get their leg lifted from time to time buying what they think is a bargain which turns out not to be.

Pete
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Sandy

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2010, 09:27:39 AM »

It might also be worth talking to Mike Rowbotham as he is based in Cornwall and specialises in vintage Hohners. http://www.michaelrowbotham.eclipse.co.uk/   

Cheers
Sandy
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george garside

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2010, 09:29:05 AM »

just a few thoughts to put in the melting pot!

agree totally with Theo re pokerwork or erica - new or secondhand , retains good resale/trade in value if its not for you.

spares for pokerwork & erica readily available & repairs easy so not the end of the world if something needs doing to a 2nd hand one.

top players eg Pete Coe, John kirkpatrick ;& Tony Hall to name but a few  all use pokerworks on stage etc. so  they are good enough for most people.  I have had one for over 30 years & it was my only DG box for about 20 years.

Older pokerworks are best!  Theo does a nice line in these

I do not recommend buying any of the chinese boxes brand new as their depreciation is massive & instant!  However  if you ;can pick one up for about £50 to £100 you may be in with a chance of getting your money back or near enou;gh if you want something better.  The more expensive £400ish scarlatti's with itlian reeds are not bad boxes but depreciation is still massive again oneof these for about £100 would be ok.

Obviously better to buy secondhand (or new )after trying a box but there can be bargains on ebay but try to get a knowledgeable opinion firstand only buy if relatively cheap (for the make & model) so you are in with a chance of getting shut without a big loss if not good!

ignore all talk that you will need to upgrade - its only an evil marketing ploy to make anybody with anything less than a costalloti feel deprived!

george ;D

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Barry J

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2010, 09:38:25 AM »

I agree with Jilly to some extent.

I bought a beginners concertina from the Music Room in Cleckheaton for £370 and one of the springs went after a couple of months. After a bit of chasing, I never managed to get a replacement spring from them, so I eventually traded it in for a better model (not from the same shop I hasten to add).
As I was instrument less for a couple of weeks, I bought a cheap Chinese 'tina from Ebay to tide me over. It plays and is in tune, so I use it outside and when I go walking etc. At under £100, its not the end of the world if it gets damaged or lost.
My latest proper box which cost about £1400 gets treated with kid gloves.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2010, 09:49:19 AM »

Pity you aren't near Cleckheaton - they do good honest advice and seem to have a big 'sale' on. 

Second hand is good idea though as you'll only know what suits you by playing. But a good new one may be a pleasure.  Forget the 'stiffness' bit - it plays out very quickly.  Don't worry too much about losing money either  - I think I've worked through 7-8 instruments in 25 years and am probably slightly plus overall.

Barry' got it right with "listen to all the advice and then go with your heart"
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Sandy

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2010, 10:09:01 AM »

It's funny how melodeons are perceived. My expensive box is more versatile and is slightly more responsive and has a saltarelle sound. I also have a cheaper restored hohner (which I call my proper box) and it's  my favourite to play. They just do different things. Being a better box just depends on your requirements. I couldn't better my Hohner Pressed Wood and  would like to  buy another one in CF. >:E . I started playing on a new chinese pokerwork, still use it sometimes but it doesn't compare to my restored hohner in the way it looks, feels, sounds and plays.

Cheers
Sandy
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Lester

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2010, 10:44:13 AM »

It's funny how melodeons are perceived. My expensive box is more versatile and is slightly more responsive and has a saltarelle sound. I also have a cheaper restored hohner (which I call my proper box) and it's  my favourite to play. They just do different things. Being a better box just depends on your requirements. I couldn't better my Hohner Pressed Wood and  would like to  buy another one in CF. >:E . I started playing on a new chinese pokerwork, still use it sometimes but it doesn't compare to my restored hohner in the way it looks, feels, sounds and plays.

Cheers
Sandy
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Almost entirely ditto.

I have two Saltarelles (L'Elfique and Connemara 3) neither of which have been out of their cases in weeks (months for the Connemara). I also have an Hohner Erica, used for band and morris and a 1930's Hohner Pressed Wood used for everything else. All y Hohners are second hand either Theo, Mike Rowbotham or eBay.

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2010, 11:15:37 AM »

William:
I'm a beginner too, and joined the forum asking advice like you.
The main piece of advice I gleaned from the assembled throng on here was to go and try as many as possible before buying, especially as I had the added complication of having small hands. It was the best advice I could have recieved.
When using my friends' borrowed eastern european box, I struggled to reach the bass notes and it wasn't very responsive. My daughter was also interested in playing following a workshop seesion at Chippenham festival, and also has small hands, so a joint box was my aim.
I had the advantage of the Sidmouth Folk festival in a few days, and living close meant it was an ideal situation - go and try.
We went and simply worked our way along *every* music stall there, and there were quite a few!
It became apparent that there is a huge difference in size, sound, responsiveness and price. Leaving aside the costs issue, some simply felt wrong to me, even as a total beginner! I can't explain that, in subjective terms, simply 'wrong'!!, others felt ok and some really good. They somehow 'sat right' in my small hands.
In the end we sorted ourselves out a box and i'm really happy.
After purchasing it, I showed it to a long standing friend, a very good player, who thought it was a nice one, and I explained I'd tried all around and we both liked this model - much more than I had planned on spending, but it felt right to both me and daughter!
He confirmed that I'd just learnt " Some people think a melodeon is a melodeon....there's a huge difference!.."

As others above have said, Hohners are good boxes, and i remember when that was the only choice, just make sure you're comfortable with it. Try others if you can......
Isn't there a Hobgoblin shop in Wadebridge? Might be worth a look just to look and try a variety of different melodeons, if they've got a selection, to try and get a feel for them before actually buying one. Just a thought.....
Anyway, good luck with your purchase, and I can vouch for the fact that this forum is a very helpful and friendly place for information, help and advice
cheers
Q
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Steve C.

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2010, 01:23:53 PM »

In 1978 when I knew even less than now, I went into a shop and said "I want an accordion that I can keep and won't be obsolete, not a beginners instrument, but not expensive."  Walked out with a DG Pokerwork which I still have, still play regularly. 

Cannot go wrong with this.  Lots of tutors available.  Plays all kind of music styles.  Not perfect but nearly. Hard to break.  Also a plus:  possibly one of the most weatherproof!
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William

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2010, 08:59:45 PM »

Hi Everyone.
I hope that I’m replying in the right way. This is my first membership of an interest group on-line and I’m delighted that so many people are kind enough to share their thoughts. Thanks to you all.
I’ll visit Hobgoblin initially and ‘play’ as many instruments as possible. I bought my piano accordion from them, years ago- maybe they’ll part exchange it? Trisha and I have a wooden boat and live in an old stone house, so Chris and Barry’s suggestion that ‘I go with my heart’ will inevitably happen. If I’m honest, some of the very old instruments look drop dead gorgeous. George looks like being helpful in the future and I will contact both Theo and Mike Rowbotham if I can’t find the right melodeon at Hobgoblin’s.
My thanks to all you wonderful people who took the time to respond to my enquiry. I’ll let you all know what I end up with!
Regards,
William
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Alan Morley

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 02:05:15 PM »

When I started playing twenty something years ago, my first box was some East German thing which was cheap and asthmatic, but I bought it just to see if I could actually play a melodeon before spending too much cash on something I could'nt get into.

Eventually I got my head round playing nursery rhymes and things from the Morris On L.P and went and bought a Hohner Erica which I still have now and it still plays well. I think a Pokerwork or an Erica is a good buy when you are happy that you want to get more serious.

I would suggest that you be careful of falling into the trap that loads of musicians fall into, by buying something like a £3,000 Castignari (or in guitarist's case American Fender Strat) and expecting it to improve your playing instantly. Improve your playing first - then buy one....

Something like a Castignari Tomy or a Lilly (I had both at one time) are really really FAST action boxes and unless you can keep up with the box, with your playing ability - there is no point putting yourself into debt.

If you are looking at a used instrument - be sure to check the bellows don't leak, and all the notes play and are in tune - take an experience box player with you if possible.

Hope this helps

Almo
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William

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 06:18:35 PM »

Hi Almo.
Thanks for the advice. I bought one of Mike’s 1930s Pokerwork boxes, down in St Ives and I’m delighted with it.

When I’m good enough to play with friends- I’ll be even more pleased, though it’ll take me some time. Just wish that I’d started years ago!

 I’m already wishing that I had a C/F version, too... That’ll have to wait until I’m MUCH more proficient.

Regards,
William
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Owen Woods

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2011, 02:38:48 AM »

Generally you should hold off upgrading until you know exactly why your current instrument is unsuitable. Not that someone told you that a pokerwork wasn't that great, or that you needed a half row and twelve bass, or a third voice, but what it is about the instrument that you have that is deficient to you progressing. Once you've reached that then it's the right time to upgrade. I've reached that with my Charango, but in all honesty, my little Bouebe still has a lot to teach me.

Mind you, that doesn't stop me filling the house with boxes, but few of them can be thought of as an upgrade :P
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Alan Morley

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2011, 09:17:39 AM »

A couple of other things to think about when buying a new box is 1) What type of music will you be playing, and 2) Will it be used to accompany vocals ?

Currently, I have two boxes - an ISIS (Excelcior) and a Hohner Erica - both D/G. The ISIS is lovely for smooth French tunes and nice waltzs, but for something with a bit of punch I use the Erica. I still like the Erica for Morris and country dance things because being bright, the sound cuts through nicely.

If I was looking for another box, I'd be after a one row four stop cajun.....but I have no idea if I can play that style - I need to get my hands on one for a try out.

I could really do with a box to accompany vocals and a C/F would fit the bill for playing live gigs. When I need to change keys for recorded stuff, I just record a D/G box and use a music editor (Music Craft 5)to open the wave file and drop it a couple of semitones to C.

Then of course there're the two and a half / three row boxes and what voicing you fancy.

I had a Salerelle Boube D/G with swing tuning for a while. I couldn't get on with that  box as it always sounded out of tune to my ears - so I quickly sold it.

Similar story with a Hohner Double Ray Black Dot in C/C# In a red pearloid finish. Lovely box but I couldn't get my head around the chromatic layout at the time - so that went too.

Hope that give you something else to ponder William  :)

Alan  :||:
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William

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2011, 11:06:04 AM »

Generally you should hold off upgrading until you know exactly why your current instrument is unsuitable.

Hi Ukebert.
I don’t mean that it’s unsuitable- I love it to bits- it’s just that I listened to the young French woman playing ‘Valse des Chevaux de Bois’ and I’d really like to play that piece. It takes me back to the days when nearly all French radio stations played this sort of thing constantly. The piece is in C- I know- I can transpose it or learn to ‘just about play it’ on my D/G- but I think it’s probably better played in C on a C/F instrument. I’ll have to wait.

I take your point and I too was once a collector of instruments- none of which I could play really well. As a retired person, I now have the time to become obsessed and practice as hard as I like. I suspect that I’ll probably have a collection of melodeons sooner or later- I like the knobs, the wood and the way they work. One chap in our village restores pianolas . He makes small jet engines, road worthy cars, steam engines of all descriptions, hovercraft, etc. and is a brilliant engineer. He likes the way that pianolas work, but hasn’t a musical cell in his body. Something about engineers, I suspect.

On an aside- that’s a great looking boat you’ve got there!
Regards,
William
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Owen Woods

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Re: New or used instrument for beginners?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2011, 12:30:26 PM »

Generally you should hold off upgrading until you know exactly why your current instrument is unsuitable.

Hi Ukebert.
I don’t mean that it’s unsuitable- I love it to bits- it’s just that I listened to the young French woman playing ‘Valse des Chevaux de Bois’ and I’d really like to play that piece. It takes me back to the days when nearly all French radio stations played this sort of thing constantly. The piece is in C- I know- I can transpose it or learn to ‘just about play it’ on my D/G- but I think it’s probably better played in C on a C/F instrument. I’ll have to wait.

I take your point and I too was once a collector of instruments- none of which I could play really well. As a retired person, I now have the time to become obsessed and practice as hard as I like. I suspect that I’ll probably have a collection of melodeons sooner or later- I like the knobs, the wood and the way they work. One chap in our village restores pianolas . He makes small jet engines, road worthy cars, steam engines of all descriptions, hovercraft, etc. and is a brilliant engineer. He likes the way that pianolas work, but hasn’t a musical cell in his body. Something about engineers, I suspect.

On an aside- that’s a great looking boat you’ve got there!
Regards,
William


Ah, I know that feeling. When I design my 2.5 row layout it will be tempting to design it around the handful of tunes that I can't quite play on D/G but wish I could...

And there is nothing wrong with collecting instruments, far from it. I collect them for similar reasons and have around 30 so far I think. Melodeons especially are particularly satisfying. But it's important to buy another instrument for the right reasons. You want to play in a particular key? Fine. Because it's pretty? Fine. Because it's slightly deviant from the norm? Definitely fine. But it's important not to spend lots of money with the excuse that you need a better instrument when the one that you have is quite sufficient :P

And I know! Unfortunately not mine :( She is a Baltic Trader, a ketch, here under main, mizzen, topsails and drifter. I found her on a website selling classic boats years ago and she's been my avatar for every forum ever since :P I sail a Trapper TS240 or a Sigma 38, depending on where I am and what time of year it is.
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