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Author Topic: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?  (Read 4034 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« on: October 23, 2010, 04:32:11 PM »

Hi All,
I've a standard D/G Box, with accidentals on the first two buttons.
This means I'm pushing to get Bb on the first btton on the D row, as the accidental.
I've looked at a tune which has a 'B-Bb-B' run it it, and generally messes around with the B and Bb runs, which is fun!
On my English conertina it's a doddle..... on my melodoen i'm almost tying myself up in knots!

Do people use some strange Oriental twisting technique, as passed down from a Grand Master - or use your thumb!
The thumb sort of makes ense but I then loose the "rooted Thumb" hand position, and it all goes a bit wobbly.
It's the first time I've had to use the Bb so am curious what others do.
yours trying to untie fingers......
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2010, 05:24:17 PM »

I always use the thumb for the chin end accidentals  .  As far as lnot losing the locating properties of the thumb the trick is to leave the fingers resting lightly on whatever buttons they were on before playing the accidental.  The thumb is then swiftly returned to its location on edge of keyboard or in groove if provided and   everything else carries on as before!

Its perhaps a good idea to maake a firm decision as to whether to use thumb or finger for accidentals ( neither right or wrong)  and then stick to whichever  method you have decided on
george
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Ollie

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2010, 05:32:28 PM »

I use one strap, so using the thumb would make the box unsteady. In tunes like Jiggery Pokerwork I use my index finger for the Bb, and my ring finger for the B.
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Howard Jones

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2010, 05:45:42 PM »

I play a box with a 4th-button start, so it's even more of a stretch to reach those top buttons.  But it's not actually that far, and you shouldn't have to perform contortions to manage it.  It does need practice though.

I use my index finger on the accidentals and third or fourth finger on the others.  As George says, it helps to leave those fingers in place so you don't lose your position on the keyboard.  You may also have to move your hand up to a position where it is easier to span between both buttons - this may be easier if your thumb is on the edge of the keyboard rather than using the "morris grip" or a thumbstrap.

Part of the trick is in thinking ahead, so that these accidentals don't take you by surprise and you've already moved your hand into a position where you can reach the buttons more easily. 

Sandy

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2010, 06:56:57 PM »

I use the thumb for Jiggery Pokerwork but not on Dance of the Demon Daffodils. Think it depends on comfort and where the rest of your fingers are positioned. Worth experimenting. Thank goodness they only make brief appearances usually.  :Ph

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Sandy
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Sandy

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2010, 06:59:35 PM »

I play a box with a 4th-button start, so it's even more of a stretch to reach those top buttons. 

Suddenly realised why I sometimes use thumb and sometimes not ! Jiggery on Saltarelle and Daffodils on Hohner. Doh !

Sandy
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Mike Averill

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2010, 07:28:02 PM »

As a lefty I just stick my little finger down. I also have the D row and G row accidental plates reversed compared to the modern standard and find this makes them much more useful.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2010, 08:56:53 PM »

Yep, 'tis Jiggery Polerwork I'm looking at!
I suspect it'll be a while before I get it going proper, but it's the first time i've encountered accidentals, and found myself not quite knowing exactly what to do for the best.

As George implies, make a rule and stick to it - hence me wondering which to do. Good tip though - leaving your existing fingers in place to allow you to get back to normal after those pesky things!
I didn't realise til after a previous thread discussion, but my thumb is in the groove on the end, and though i had no idea it is actually anchored there quite firmly ( a previous discussion with George! ) so having a focal point might mean that moving fingers out of position is actually not bad cos I've the thumb to get me back to normal.
Or.....leave the fingers in position as a steadying influence and use the thumb also makes sense. I'd not thought of using the fingers to steady the box.
hmmmmmm!!
As said, I need to try both ways, using thumb v's moving fingers and then stick to it.
Ok......

Sandy: That's the thing about chatting, you always learn something you didn't know before  ;)

Mike: you've blown my mind there. I'm a lefty ( writing and kicking a football  ) but a total mix for other things, and right for cricket bat ( in the day ) and guitar many moons ago, but right handed for melodeon.  I'm finding learning difficult enough without doing it upside down!!!! You have my total admiration sir!

Back to the plot.
Will have a go tomorrow. The lull of the hot woodburner has got me!!!!!!!
thanks all for your advice, much appreciated.
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Mike Averill

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2010, 09:36:08 PM »

If your really  left handed then playing with the keyboard on the right hand should be better. Im right handed but play keyboard to the left. Either way turn the accidental plates over. They are much more usefull.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 09:48:15 PM by Mike Averill »
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rees

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2010, 11:56:53 PM »

Either way turn the accidental plates over. They are much more usefull.


That is the way it is done in France and probably the rest of the continent.
Us Brits just have to be different!
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2010, 06:22:08 AM »

To me it's not what your index finger is doing but the other three. Most of us play predominantly index/middle/ring and when a tune uses an accidental I've learned to transfer fingering to the middle/ring/pinkie.  OK - this arguably underuses that strong index finger, but in defence I'd offer that Fred Paris plays a lot of his stuff with these 3 fingers (top end, C/G) and then uses his index finger for some lovely bass runs at the "English" end.  I digress from accidentals here, but all is possible.

Except thumb  ???  Can't think I've ever though of it.  George - are you double jointed?

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george garside

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2010, 09:34:04 AM »

No!  but its quite easy as the thumb seems far better designed for swift sideways movments than do the other digits

george
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Sandy

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2010, 10:34:48 AM »

I might try short slowish video of jiggery B part so to see what I'm doing. I can never look at the keyboard and play.

I am pretty sure that Squeezy doesn't use his thumb for Jiggery tune but possibly does for Red Kites.

Still think it's all about where your hand/fingers are in relation to the stretch. If it demands your thumb then you need to use it. ....and it always causes a conversation like this at a session.  ;)

cheers
Sandy
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george garside

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2010, 11:56:14 AM »

       I can never look at the keyboard and play.
 cheers
Sandy
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playing in front of a mirror can be very helpful when trying to work out what goes where & when!
This also applies to bass  end, particularly large numbers of stradella.
george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2010, 12:11:03 PM »

Morning all!
Looks like it's got some people thinking about what they do, always quite useful in the long term. Sorry if I've caused brain ache!

Sandy: Have so far never realised this type of thing brought about discussions at sessions, cos I've always been at the other end of the room wiv me thrupenny bit!
Amazing what you learn on here........
I can see that in some cases if the tune is down near the dusty end it might be easier to use the thumb if too long for a stretch. That makes sense.

Well. tiz a bright and beautiful blue sky out there, time for an experiment in the garden.
No doubt will have more of an idea  of what to do later on
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Using accidentals - hand/finger use and position?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2010, 07:05:32 PM »

Update:
Following the discussions up there ^^^^ I've been messing around in an informal way with Jiggery Pokerwork, especially the B music.
I find my thumb is well and truely planted on the fingerboard edge. It seems to want to be there, so it feels like I'm going to be a finger stretcher.
I've got little hands, so find it a stretch but seem to be favouring my index for pushing the Bb and ring finger for pushing the B on the G row.
Saying that, it appears to me that I'm pulling a lot of the notes using the D row, so at first real go, it seems that I use my fingers at a stretch, shift the rest up and seem to be favouring the D dow to access the notes required.
No idea what the left's doing, but one step at a time!
My version is accredited to John Spiers, and has basses added, which seem to be all around Em, and those coming right for using a D row, pushing and pulling.
Obviously this might well change as I get to grips with it....!
Still, it's fun.

Sandy: How's the observations of your right hand going along?

cheers all
Q

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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
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