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[Pete Dunk]

The treble reeds have now all been fine tuned and the remaining valves have been fitted. The melodeon sounds pretty good on the treble end and is very responsive. Limiting the button travel has made the keyboard action light and fast, so now it's a very nice instrument to play.

The jury is still out on what I'll do about the bass end chords but I'm seriously considering new reeds to finish the box off properly. 

[Pete Dunk]

Here we go again, the nights are drawing in so it's time for box butchery again. This time it's a Hohner Club IIIB C/F which is in much better condition than my last project box. An couple of air leaks to sort out but new bellows gasket will probably take care of most of that, although I strongly suspect that the huge air valve isn't sealing properly either. The pallets may need refacing but we'll see.

The reeds are nice and clean but rather out of tune and the old leather valves (fitted throughout, no plastic ones in this box) are badly curled so I'll be replacing those. No pics to put up yet but I will post some when I get myself a bit more organised.

Here I am again with more questions about tuning having scoured through a couple of interesting threads. I'm unsure about trying 'dedic' tuning as the debate swings wildly back and forth but I am curious to know what it is that makes it a right royal PITA to do and would it be any easier to get right on a three voice box when at least one of the reeds is tuned tdc?

My schoolboy physics is screaming out at me telling me I already know the answer to the next question but I'll ask it nevertheless. Am I correct in assuming that if I tune the tremolo reeds using Hz instead of cents that the chosen tremolo will remain constant all the way up the box without compensating for the smaller reeds by reducing the difference as you need to do when using cents?

That's probably enough for now, I don't want to push my luck.

Pete. 

[Theo]

I'm unsure about trying 'dedic' tuning as the debate swings wildly back and forth but I am curious to know what it is that makes it a right royal PITA to do and would it be any easier to get right on a three voice box when at least one of the reeds is tuned tdc?

If your three voices are MMM then the conventional way is to tune -/0/+
What makes two voce tuning with one reed sharp and one flat is that there is no reed at the nominal pitch to act as a reference when making the crucial final adjustments to get a consistent beat rate.

My schoolboy physics is screaming out at me telling me I already know the answer to the next question but I'll ask it nevertheless. Am I correct in assuming that if I tune the tremolo reeds using Hz instead of cents that the chosen tremolo will remain constant all the way up the box without compensating for the smaller reeds by reducing the difference as you need to do when using cents?

That depends what you mean by "using Hz instead of cents".

If you set your tuner to say A=442, then you will have a 2Hz difference( = 2 bps tremolo) at that A, but an octave higher you will have double the frequency on your sharp reed eg 884Hz giving you 4bps difference from the reed at nominal pitch.

If you have a way of measuring a 2Hz difference from every note you tune then you will have the same beat rate across the board.

[Pete Dunk]

If your three voices are MMM then the conventional way is to tune -/0/+
What makes two voce tuning with one reed sharp and one flat is that there is no reed at the nominal pitch to act as a reference when making the crucial final adjustments to get a consistent beat rate.

Yes, the three voices are MMM so 'dedic' tuning might be an option? I'm aware that you're not entirely convinced about it so perhaps I'll stick to 'standard' accordion tuning until I have a bit more experience.

That depends what you mean by "using Hz instead of cents".

If you set your tuner to say A=442, then you will have a 2Hz difference( = 2 bps tremolo) at that A, but an octave higher you will have double the frequency on your sharp reed eg 884Hz giving you 4bps difference from the reed at nominal pitch.

If you have a way of measuring a 2Hz difference from every note you tune then you will have the same beat rate across the board.

My Peterson StroboFlip tuner can be set to either cents or Hertz and I can preset a +/- offset so yes I can measure a 2Hz difference from any note (with the meter set to A=440). That kind of takes away the guesswork of using cents then. 

One thing I've never thought to mention is that I have hearing damage, which means that in addition to slightly poor general hearing I have a built in bandpass filter that cuts out higher and lower frequencies so I'm more reliant on meters than most people as the upper and lower harmonics are inaudible to me.  :'(

[Theo]

If your three voices are MMM then the conventional way is to tune -/0/+
What makes two voce tuning with one reed sharp and one flat is that there is no reed at the nominal pitch to act as a reference when making the crucial final adjustments to get a consistent beat rate.

Yes, the three voices are MMM so 'dedic' tuning might be an option? I'm aware that you're not entirely convinced about it so perhaps I'll stick to 'standard' accordion tuning until I have a bit more experience.

So with MMM configuration how would 'dedic' differ from the conventional?

[melodeon]

If I understand the question

one reed low  one reed  440   one reed high

[Theo]

Exactly, that would be the conventional tuning.

[Pete Dunk]

So with MMM configuration how would 'dedic' differ from the conventional?

[waltzman]

So with MMM configuration how would 'dedic' differ from the conventional?

I use a Stroboflip tuner and I was never able to figure out an easy mathematical way to set the tremolo using cents or hertz.  I think the reason is that the 'distance' between the reeds that determines the beat frequency varies continuously over the scale.  So maybe it would be helpful to explain what makes standard tuning of a two voice instrument relativley easier than 'dedic'.  With standard tuning you can tune one set of reeds exactly on pitch and the second set you can tune by ear to the amount of tremolo you like and make it roughly the same over the scale.  To do this you only have to adjust the one 'wet' reed and you never have to worry about the pitch because it is 'anchored' by the other reed.  With 'dedic' tuning on a two voice there is no reed anchoring the pitch so fine tuning the tremolo involves adjusting two reeds by exactly the same amount in the same direction or else you may throw off the pitch.  The beauty of being able to tune your own instrument is that, after playing it awhile you will likely notice that one note may be a bit 'wetter' than the rest and you can pop open the box and adjust it.  I never get it just right the first (or even second) time through.

By the way, I've found that the Stroboflip works best if you plug a good microphone into it.  I use an SM57.

[Falseknight]

Thought Club III was MML - in which case Dedic doesn't work.

[Pete Dunk]

Thought Club III was MML - in which case Dedic doesn't work.

Perhaps there were different models, this is a IIIB and is definately MMM.

[Theo]

Thought Club III was MML - in which case Dedic doesn't work.

Yes there are many different versions of the Club III.  Typically the ones with stops/couplers are LMM, the ones without usually MMM.

[Pete Dunk]

A couple of things about this box have surprised me over the last few days. First of all it was tuned A=435 so I've a bit more work to do on the tuning than I had anticipated. Secondly, having now finished tuning and re-valving the eight large bass reed plates I turned my attention to the high bass and chord reeds today only to discover that the chords are six voice rather than the four I had expected to find.

As the box doesn't have a bass end stop to take out the thirds I'm wondering whether to block off the ports (reversibly!) and just have two root and two fifth tuned reeds to make it less air hungry. I'll tune the thirds up anyway (5 cents flat) just in case I want to bring them into play at a later stage.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea, will it make the chords too thin?

[Theo]

Six reeds in the chords in addition to the two bass reeds? I've not seen that before, usually its four chord reeds, I can't imagine they will sound thin if there are still four reeds sounding!

[Pete Dunk]

No, sorry Theo, it's two bass notes and four chord reeds, the pre-Corso three voice I did only had two chord reeds.

[Theo]

That's what I've seen on other early Club III, with the 'extra' reed being a higher tonic.  Its often easier to stop the thirds on those boxes because sometimes the third for both push and pull are on the same reedplate.  All you need then is to tape over the vent in the base of the block.

Incidentally even the tiny Preciosa has 4 chord reeds and two of them shared with the bass.

[Pete Dunk]

It seems as if this box may be slightly different from the norm, the six notes in the chords are: two root notes an octave apart (shared with the bass), two thirds an octave apart and two fifths an octave apart. I haven't finished investigating yet but so far it looks as if the thirds in each case are on plates together and easily blanked off.

The bass mechanism on this beastie is rather more complex than my other Hohner! Refacing the pallets looks like quite a task, as indeed does the treble end now I've had a good look around inside.

Looks like another steep learning curve. 

[Theo]

So it is six notes per chord after all?

The later Club III, such as the Club IIIM have a complicated mechanism which shares reeds between different chords, so for example the fifth of C/G (G/D)  becomes the third of Eb/Bb, and the tonic of C/G becomes the fifth of F/C.  Quite ingenious, but it it does rule out de-clubbing then chords.

[Pete Dunk]

So it is six notes per chord after all?

The later Club III, such as the Club IIIM have a complicated mechanism which shares reeds between different chords, so for example the fifth of C/G (G/D)  becomes the third of Eb/Bb, and the tonic of C/G becomes the fifth of F/C.  Quite ingenious, but it it does rule out de-clubbing then chords.

Yes there are six notes in total, that includes the two shared with the basses which give the root notes of the chord. I think there's a bit of confusion here with terminology! Here you were asking if there were six notes in addition to the borrowed bases:

Six reeds in the chords in addition to the two bass reeds? I've not seen that before, usually its four chord reeds, I can't imagine they will sound thin if there are still four reeds sounding!

I really must take some pics so you can have a good look at it. The basses do seem to work as you suggested with ports opening all over the shop to create the chords using shared notes. Good job I wasn't intending to de-Club it then!

edited for typo - must learn to spel proper 

[IanD]

I'm unsure about trying 'dedic' tuning as the debate swings wildly back and forth but I am curious to know what it is that makes it a right royal PITA to do and would it be any easier to get right on a three voice box when at least one of the reeds is tuned tdc?

If your three voices are MMM then the conventional way is to tune -/0/+
What makes two voce tuning with one reed sharp and one flat is that there is no reed at the nominal pitch to act as a reference when making the crucial final adjustments to get a consistent beat rate.

My schoolboy physics is screaming out at me telling me I already know the answer to the next question but I'll ask it nevertheless. Am I correct in assuming that if I tune the tremolo reeds using Hz instead of cents that the chosen tremolo will remain constant all the way up the box without compensating for the smaller reeds by reducing the difference as you need to do when using cents?

That depends what you mean by "using Hz instead of cents".

If you set your tuner to say A=442, then you will have a 2Hz difference( = 2 bps tremolo) at that A, but an octave higher you will have double the frequency on your sharp reed eg 884Hz giving you 4bps difference from the reed at nominal pitch.

If you have a way of measuring a 2Hz difference from every note you tune then you will have the same beat rate across the board.

It's a PITA to do if you don't have a tuner that can directly allow a frequency offset (eg. 2Hz) to be entered for that note.

If you do have one it's no more work or more difficult than normal tuning (for a 2-reed box -- with 3 reeds MMM there's no difference to "normal" tuning unless the offsets of the flat and sharp reeds are different)

Dirk's Tuner not only allows offsets (and simultaneous measurement of multiple reeds) but lets you do measurement in the box with tuning done outside it -- it measures the difference in frequency and allows for it.

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php

It costs more than a cheap external tuner, but is capable of a lot more.

Ian