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Author Topic: New Pokerwork  (Read 7561 times)

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Theo

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 09:52:58 AM »

Interesting,  one of the things Ian specified when I did some tuning for him was that there should be a constant beat rate across the whole range.  I'll be interested to hear the difference (onmvoice giving server errors just now)
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2011, 10:09:43 AM »

Interesting,  one of the things Ian specified when I did some tuning for him was that there should be a constant beat rate across the whole range.  I'll be interested to hear the difference (onmvoice giving server errors just now)
Perhaps that is Ian's personal preference. I decided mine from listening to several Hohners and selecting the degrees of tremolo I liked best across the range of notes. I then constructed a tremolo rate graph as a smooth curve through a few fixed points (the A notes in my previous post) and then tuned the rest of the reeds to give the tremolo according to the curve.

I originally measured the tremolo rates by making a recording of long sustained notes for every button on both push and pull. By viewing the sound waveform trace in my recording software (Garageband in my case, but Audacity, etc. will do just as well), and then expanding the horizontal (time scale) sufficiently, I was able to see the cyclic amplitude variations which corresponded to the tremolo pulses. It was then very easy to count the number of pulses for any given time interval and hence calculate the tremolo rate in hertz. I find it near impossible to determine the absolute tremolo rate just by listening, especially when it is anything other than slow, but that is probably down to my relative inexperience.

Once I'd done the basic Dedic tuning, I used my ear as the final judge as to whether I'd achieved the degree of tremolo which satisfied me best. I was pleased to find that I only needed a couple of very minor refining tweaks.  
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Theo

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2011, 10:47:57 AM »

Garageband or Audacity as a substitute for on oscilloscope!  I like that.  I can't count fast beats, but I can manage up to about 5Hz.
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docEdock

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2011, 11:12:21 AM »


 . . . The tremolo I finally adopted was a beat rate of 2.3 Hz at A=220, 4.3 Hz at A=440, 5.2 Hz at A=880, rising to 5.6 Hz at A6=1760. These correspond to cents difference of 18.9, 15.9, 10.2 and 5.6 respectively. . .

Steve, I'm curious about why you prefer that the beat rate change inversely with the pitch? What aural perception is created by this approach, which I'm interpreting as sounding progressively dryer up the scale. Does our perception of beat vary as a function of pitch and you're adjusting for that or is this something musical?
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2011, 12:19:58 PM »


 . . . The tremolo I finally adopted was a beat rate of 2.3 Hz at A=220, 4.3 Hz at A=440, 5.2 Hz at A=880, rising to 5.6 Hz at A6=1760. These correspond to cents difference of 18.9, 15.9, 10.2 and 5.6 respectively. . .

Steve, I'm curious about why you prefer that the beat rate change inversely with the pitch? What aural perception is created by this approach, which I'm interpreting as sounding progressively dryer up the scale. Does our perception of beat vary as a function of pitch and you're adjusting for that or is this something musical?

Oh my! Those are difficult questions to answer. I think there are several things going on here.

On a specific basis, the tremolo on Hohners and as far as I know other makes too, generally have increased tremolo as the pitch rises. I think that is because to most ears it sounds better that way (I certainly prefer it like that) but others may have their own preference. However, I suppose there is always the possibility that we have become so used to the way Hohners sound, that we are sort of indoctrinated into what sounds 'right'.

To expand on my own preferences even more, my overall choice is for my instruments to be tuned with relatively little tremolo. I can't stand the extreme wetness of the accordions which seem to be popular for Scottish country dancing. Sometimes they are so wet that they are verging on being totally out of tune, and that offends my ears. So this may colour how I personally perceive tremolo.

Even with ordinary, 'typical' Hohner melodeons, to me a marked tremolo on the lowest notes just doesn't sound right. So I prefer to keep it very slight. But as you go further up in pitch, the higher notes need a touch more tremolo to sound 'right'. I think it is also linked with the apparent perception of volume too. High pitched reeds will inevitably sound quieter than the low reeds. Adding more tremolo to the higher notes seems to balance this out somehow.

I've found this website: 'Talking Reeds' useful, and thought-provoking. In particular, there are some interesting graphs of tremolo vs pitch towards the bottom of the page, which give an indication of what reed tuners mean by 'tuning on the curve'.

Hope this goes some way to answering your questions.....
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »

Steve, I'm curious about why you prefer that the beat rate change inversely with the pitch? What aural perception is created by this approach, which I'm interpreting as sounding progressively dryer up the scale. Does our perception of beat vary as a function of pitch and you're adjusting for that or is this something musical?
I've been thinking some more about this.....

Question:
Why do we have tremolo on accordions/melodeons in the first place?

Possible answer:
It generally sounds 'better'.

But why does it sound better? Is it because it is a way of introducing a type of vibrato? Vibrato is a means of adding warmth and emotional intensity to music. The human voice and many musical instruments, especially the violin-cello family and many wind/brass instruments, are capable of producing vibrato. Free reed instruments, once tuned, are basically fixed in pitch, and cannot produce vibrato, except by the tremolo method utilising the acoustic interference of two or more slightly mis-tuned reeds.

If free-reed tremolo is indeed a method of imitating vibrato, then we also need to examine how other musicians utilise vibrato.
This may be a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but I believe vibrato is used to greatest effect when it is more rapid on higher pitched notes rather than lower pitched notes. Think of a bass or baritone soloist compared with a soprano soloist. I'm sure there are Youtube examples out there. But here's some examples which I've found to illustrate my ideas:

Bach: Prelude to the 2nd cello suite (beautiful, introspective, meditative music)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWyrxAZCOhA
Notice how often the cellist makes more vibrato on the higher notes than on the lower notes.

Here's another example - an archive recording of the wonderful Jacqueline du Pre playing the 3rd movement of the Elgar cello concerto (warning - this always makes me cry). The higher notes in the emotionally intense passages tend to have the most vibrato.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsekb1qwZs0

Why do we like vibrato? For it's warmth?
Here's something different - a consort of viols. Viols are string instruments similar to the violin-cello family, but with fretted fingerboards like guitars or lutes. So you cannot easily play vibrato like the two previous cellists. The result is a very pure sort of sound, some might describe it as being austere, if you're not used to it. And the instruments have to be perfectly in tune otherwise it can sound ghastly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-qS7ms5apQ
 

To recap, my point is that for free-reed instruments, a tremolo set-up is the main way in which a vibrato-like sound can be obtained, and thus achieve an effect similar to the voice or other instruments. The relatively fixed nature of tuning a free-reed instrument means that it is always going to be a compromise anyway. Other instruments and singers can change the frequency and intensity of their vibrato at will. Melodeons and accordions can't do this. So the set-up of having the least tremolo for the lower pitched reeds and more tremolo for the higher pitched reeds is all part of this compromise.
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2011, 02:25:02 PM »

Thanks for that, Steve. Funny, it has never occurred to me that tremolo on a box might be an attempt to imitate the vibrato used by other instruments. Probably because the effect is so totally different. I'm very familiar with vibrato on stringed instruments, having learned classical violin as a kid.

Generally I dislike vibrato in traditional fiddling, but I like a bit - and sometimes a lot - of tremolo on an accordion playing the same repertoire. Constant use of vibrato in fiddling seems like a clumsy attempt to increase the emotional weight of the performance, which succeeds only in making the playing sound pretentious and in fact emotionally empty to my ear.

Sure, a bit of tremolo on an accordion adds a certain warmth to the sound. But to me it doesn't carry any sort of emotional weight. Thinking of melodeon playing in the context of, say, Jacqueline du Pré's cello playing seems like going out on a very long and shaky limb!

What am I saying? Not quite sure yet, except that on the subject of box tremolo, I would be tempted to look for an effect that satisfied me without paying any attention to what other instruments might do or not do.

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2011, 12:30:20 PM »

... What aural perception is created by this approach, which I'm interpreting as sounding progressively dryer up the scale. ...
Steve,
Thanks for the link to to Reed Tuning and the vibrato examples. Very interesting. After looking at the graph, I'll correct my comment to say your approach sounds progressively wetter up the scale. (I had misunderstood the relationship of wet and dry to beat frequency.)

Based on the Reed Tuning article and your replies, it sounds as if tremolo is playing several roles: mechanical in that it helps balance loudness across the reeds, musical in that it introduces vibrato, and aural in that it helps disguise the the imperfections of the equal temperament scale and may allow melodeon duets by disguising tuning differences. (The aural is pure speculation on my part.)

I've been struck by how in evolutionary terms, the free reed resembles an invasive species -- a musical weed introduced in England and Germany around 1830. Although the free reed was known prior to that, it didn't really spread in the West because the environment (manufacturing capabilities, pre-modernity, musical preferences, whatever) did not support growth. Then in the mid to late 1800's it reproduced widely and rapidly diverged into most of today's instruments (speciation of the genus, just like Darwin's finches).

So here's a thought question: was tremolo a characteristic of squeeze boxes from the beginning? If not -- and I'm assuming the first bellows driven instruments were single voiced and did not have tremolo -- when did the mutation occur? What reproductive advantages did it introduce in which musical niches? Why has squeezebox bandoneónus dominated in the tango niche but not others? Would dry Hohners have spread so rapidly, thus allowing Steve to get his new refurbished Pokerwork without the throb, or did they spread because they were wet?  Not to ignore Hohner's manufacturing genius which certainly contributed to Pokerwork vigor.

Oops, thread drift. Well I did say it was a thought question.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 12:45:09 PM by docEdoc »
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OwenG

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2011, 04:58:33 PM »

Other instruments and singers can change the frequency and intensity of their vibrato at will. Melodeons and accordions can't do this. So the set-up of having the least tremolo for the lower pitched reeds and more tremolo for the higher pitched reeds is all part of this compromise.

Bit more thread drift - there was an interesting article on the Today programme on Radio Four yesterday morning about a physicist (?) from York University who was studying chorister's voices to try and pin down the 'special' quality of them. His conclusion was that the special quality was due to certain frequencies included in their voices. I don't know if this would have any application to Melodeon tuning? It should be available via iPlayer I guess if anyone's interested and was between 8:00 and 8:30 when I was stuck on the A14  >:(.
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2011, 05:50:16 PM »

It is obvious that there is huge potential from a scientific point of view in investigating reeds and free reed instruments. I sort of wish I was good enough to look at it :(
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2011, 07:59:34 PM »

But, even a modern Erica or Pokerwork can be made to sound much different by tuning the reeds with much less tremolo.
Totally agree.

Here's a link to a recording my 1970s C/F Erica after I'd recently retuned to Viennese 'Dedic' tuning, with considerably less tremolo than the default Hohner factory tuning.
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=32153

The tremolo I finally adopted was a beat rate of 2.3 Hz at A=220, 4.3 Hz at A=440, 5.2 Hz at A=880, rising to 5.6 Hz at A6=1760. These correspond to cents difference of 18.9, 15.9, 10.2 and 5.6 respectively.

I am very pleased with the way it sounds.  (:)

What a delightful sounding instrument! I do like the beat rates you designed. I'll eventually be working on my G/C Presswood again and will probably attempt the same kind of tuning scheme.

Thank you also for your thoughts on tremolo in your posts from today. Very interesting and thought provoking.
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2011, 11:37:52 AM »

aural in that it helps disguise the the imperfections of the equal temperament scale and may allow melodeon duets by disguising tuning differences. (The aural is pure speculation on my part.)

You may be on to something there. By analogy, on a stringed instrument like violin or cello, vibrato is known to be a convenient way of covering up dodgy intonation.
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2011, 12:36:19 PM »

aural in that it helps disguise the the imperfections of the equal temperament scale and may allow melodeon duets by disguising tuning differences. (The aural is pure speculation on my part.)

You may be on to something there. By analogy, on a stringed instrument like violin or cello, vibrato is known to be a convenient way of covering up dodgy intonation.

And its the high notes on a free reed instrument where out of tune intervals are most apparent to the ear, which may be why some of us like the sound of more tremolo on higher pitch notes.
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2011, 07:47:48 PM »

And its the high notes on a free reed instrument where out of tune intervals are most apparent to the ear, which may be why some of us like the sound of more tremolo on higher pitch notes.

I also find that if the beat rate does not approximate double with each octave, then the higher octaves sound flat to me, especially when playing with bassoon or piccolo reeds.  I believe that the +/- tuning scheme would mitigate this effect, but to my ears it causes other problems with intonation.

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2011, 08:25:09 AM »

The simple solution is to have the box tuned with the minimum of tremolo.  :o

And if you need a loud instrument for playing unamplified out of doors, then get a set of great highland bagpipes. >:E
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2011, 05:11:21 PM »

And if you need a loud instrument for playing unamplified out of doors, then get a set of great highland bagpipes. >:E
Or a bombarde  >:E
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2011, 07:48:13 PM »

re Cellos - The physics of stringed instruments also means that as you go up the neck you automatically get more vibrato for the same amount of finger movement.

Steve
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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2011, 08:06:53 PM »

And if you need a loud instrument for playing unamplified out of doors, then get a set of great highland bagpipes. >:E
Or a bombarde  >:E

I thought of that Steve, but decided that the ghb would overcome the silences while the bombarde player is breathing.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2011, 08:15:15 PM »

I thought of that Steve, but decided that the ghb would overcome the silences while the bombarde player is breathing.
Ah - that's why bombarde players tend to clump together in multiples of two. Each player or group of players play alternate sections, dovetailing the joins seamlessly. This allows for breathing and a short recovery period before you have to belt out the melody again.  (:)
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Theo

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Re: New Pokerwork
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2011, 08:47:24 PM »

But fails to shed any light on why pipers form huge flocks. ;D
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