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Author Topic: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?  (Read 25346 times)

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docEdock

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Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« on: December 16, 2010, 09:17:24 PM »

I'm discovering that learning French traditional accordion here in Atlanta Georgia is a lonely sport. Finding local TexMex or Cajun players might not be too hard but I listened to grivemusicienne and was lost. Now I'm working through Pignol and Milleret's Diatonic Accordion Technique, Volume 1 and have made it to page 20.  So, here's the question: is anyone else on a similar journey? I'd be delighted to hear about it.

I've been inspired by ladydetemps' shameless promotion page and the helpful response and advice this forum has offered. I'm envisioning a virtual support group for Pignol and Milleret learners.  Perhaps we could post versions of the Pignol and Milleret tunes on youtube and give assurance that it's just a matter of time (and a lifetime of  practice, not to mention talent) before we too sound like M. Brotto. 
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michik

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 10:38:50 PM »

I'm also learning french stuff, but I have a teacher.  (:)
In parallel I'm using the Yann Dour's tutor book, but I'm thinking of
getting the Pignol & Milleret book too.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 08:10:11 AM »

I love these two Norbert and Stéph to bits - but would council that they are not considered "French Traditional Accordion" within metropolitan France. Both grew up deeply rooted in traditional music and dance  but their instincts are towards jazz. To express that starting from a danceable trad basis has been the challenge. (Stéph in particular doesn't think most 'jazz standards' are particularly good tunes)!  Loads of searchable stuff on youtube to hear what I mean.

By the time you get to book three  - they'll also be taking liberties with the rhythms - although nearly everything they've done remains danceable.  It's all very sound stuff, but intentionally goes beyond the folk idiom.  There are other (many) French players who do it very trad (though not too many in the Grenoble scene).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 02:05:08 PM by Chris Ryall »
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 11:20:36 AM »

Chris,
Thanks for that insight about French Traditional. Just to clarify in my mind, was your reference, "I love these two to bits" referring to Pignol and Millerete or Brotto and grievemusicienne?

I think I'll adopt Michik's terminology, "french stuff" which does a better job of covering my interest, or even expand it to "continental stuff", since I'm appreciating Carles Belda and others on http://www.lamaredelsous.com. I've been thinking of Carles Belda's style as traditional Catalan but perhaps it is also a modern interpretation of traditional.

I like your confidence in "By the time you get to book three . . .". From my perspective of learning the first tune in book 1, that looks like a long and steep climb. I assume you've been up that path and would recommend it?

Michik,
I haven't found a detailed description of Yann Dour's book or a glimpse of it's table of contents. What learning approach does it use?

I would say that the learning approach in the Pignol & Milleret books is that of using 8 or 10 discrete exercises to build skills, followed by a tune that incorporates the new skills. The recorded examples cover every exercise and present the tunes in slow and faster versions (book 1 and book 3 audio is downloadable and book 2 includes 2 CD's). So far -- well in the first 20 pages at least -- I think the progression is well paced and logical, though my fingers might have other opinions.

I envy your having a teacher. I assume you've found a local resource and are doing on-site lessons. I'm mulling over whether to enroll in Accademia del Mantice so as to have a virtual tutor.
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Larry

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 01:22:56 PM »

Hello Altanta,
I was from Des Moines till 15 years. With that as ground work french
(grenoble style) was my faté. :)  the Pignol/Milleret books will make
all players better players. Good choice. I started my first two years
with Pennec and Ronan Robert books. The Robert book being just
fabulous. It, like the mustradem series is a fine companion.
You will be proud of your skills if you stay with those books. AND
very possible without a teacher you can prove yourself a good player.
I highly recommend the Mustradem series!!
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 08:25:42 PM »

Larry,

You may find this a stunning question, but Des Moines as in Iowa? I know I'm missing something here and am clueless, clueless, clueless.
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Nick Hudis

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 09:38:33 PM »

I've been using the Pignol and Milleret books as a revision rather than learning from scratch. I'm most of the way through Book 2. I think they are excellent books and beat most tutors because the tunes are such high quality.

I'd echo what Chris Ryall says.  This is a modern and quite idiosyncratic approach to the accordion with strong jazz influences.  That suits me very well, but traditional it is not.
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 10:10:21 PM »

Which tutorial books would fit into the French Traditional category?
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waltzman

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 12:16:10 AM »

I've worked on exercises and tunes in all three books and I would argue that the first two volumes are straight forward skill building for playing the diatonic accordion in any style.  The emphasis I would say is on traditional french dance music.  There is a section on the rhythm structure and recommended tempos for 19 different dances.  There are multiple examples of traditional tunes in the repertoire section.  While the musicians themselves may play mostly  nontraditional stuff, I would not characterize their method books as jazz oriented.  The third volume does introduce blues scales and compound chords.
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2010, 02:23:49 PM »

Which tutorial books would fit into the French Traditional category?

Well, first of all, while what Chris said above is true, the vol. 1 M/P book is still traditional -- it's not really until vol 2 and especially 3 that you move beyond techniques that are typical in the tradition(s).

I wanted to add that if you are interested in leaning more toward the traditional playing techniques (and tunes), one path for you -- since you are so far away from a "live" player from whom to learn -- would be to acquire some good recordings of trad players without the bells and whistles.  What I mean is that you could seek out some solo recordings without jazzed-up arrangements.  Yann Dour's book (with recording) of Breton tunes is a good place to start.  Fredric Paris is another good one -- even his originals seem to be "new tunes played in the old way," albeit to a level of technical proficiency that probably exceeds the typical player, say, 75 years ago.  Remember that everyone's notion of "traditional" is different -- it can be a very relative concept and tends to cause a lot of disagreement among players.

Generally, remember that you can simply learn "by ear," and using software to slow down a recording, while a "technological" solution, probably comes closest to the experience of learning by ear from a master player who is willing to play a tune slowly for you, over and over.  I used to think that this was a real compromise until I saw some film footage of Philippe Bruneau, whose adherence to tradition would not be questioned by anyone, doing basically the same thing with a variable speed tape player!  I think that you will find that learning by ear, you will assimilate the tune better and once you've learned it, you won't have to worry about throwing away the crutch (that is sheet music/tabs).  That said, tabs are still very helpful for understanding the relation of bellows direction choice with chords once you get into cross-rowing.
-Andy
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 02:52:23 PM by Andy in Vermont »
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 10:26:19 AM »

I fear that I laid a false scent by slinging around the term: French Traditional without understanding the nuance. Y'all have been very kind in educating me rather than sneering at a newbie -- I'm thinking of other forums in which I would have emerged scalded like a lobster and none the wiser.

I want to learn to play in the style of these YouTube posters: diatonik46, grivemusicienne, pierrOtdiat. I can just imagine the groans, since for all I know their only commonality is listing France as the country in a YouTube profile and playing diatonic.

Given the distant shores of Atlanta, is Pignol and Milleret volume 1-2 a reasonable way to proceed, along with YouTube and various recordings as has been suggested? Or are other tutorials better suited to where I want to go? Here I'm asking for an evaluation of both the musical style and learning approach, since if either is off target I'll wander off my path. For example, might Yann Dour's three volume series be a better starting place? Or would it be a good supplement to Pignol and Milleret?
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Larry

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 11:00:06 AM »

Hello, buy all of these listed.
alain pennec
ronan robert
dominique gravouille
yann dour
trad magazine (volume 4 répertoire de bal breton
pignol and milleret series.
 You will be happy and that isn't much to invest in teaching yourself.
Good luck in Atlana. You wil make if you so desire.
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waltzman

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 01:06:07 PM »

I think the first volume of P&M is a very good way to get started but there is also a wealth of info on the net for learning this style of music.  It would help you a lot to get a G/C tuned instrument since most of the youtube players use this tuning for this style music.  You mentioned grivemusicienne.... I learned the valse des chevaux de bois using her video and searching out the music on the net.  Here is a good link for music in this genre  http://www.organetto.info/archivio/index.php
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 03:26:43 PM »

Excellent advice, re the G/C. I've chatted with Bernard Loffet and believe I've decided on a G/C two-row three-voice Graeter e Breizh with stops for delivery this spring

I'll be island hopping in the Caribbean Jan - Mar and hesitate to take such a fine box to sea. I just failed to win http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=23056264186 which in the end may be a blessing given the forum's advice about old boxes. I was thinking the Hohner might go on the voyage and if it returns as rusted junk despite precautions, I wouldn't be that distraught.

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waltzman

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 04:39:22 PM »

The Button Box has several used Hohners in G/C for sale.  They also carry the Milleret and Pignol books.  Good folks to deal with.

http://www.buttonbox.com/instruments-in-stock.html
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 11:28:58 PM »

Thanks for the Button Box tip. I bought P&M volumes 1-2 from them and while I was shopping wandered over to the used Hohner section. As you point out, they have several G/C's for sale. Melodeon acquisition disorder must be really virulent. Just hanging around the forum puts one at risk.
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 05:07:17 AM »

I'm about eleven years into the journey you're starting.  I never used the P&M tutorials, but their tunes and tabs in Trad magazine (as well as their recordings) inspired me greatly.  The thing that dragged me into this music was the repertoire.  I just love these tunes.  I had been playing Irish music, but these waltzes, bourrees etc. really moved me.

But you're right, it is lonely.  You'll never have as many collaborators as the Irish players.  Early on I discovered the website www.tradfrance.com, run by Sylvain Piron, of Alsace.  He's an accordionist, dancer/leader, and singer.  I stuck up a correspondence with Sylvain and sent him tunes to comment on, etc.  So, in this very limited way, he was my teacher -- though we've since become good friends.  I traveled to Alsace and was stunned by his community of accordionists -- so many people playing French tunes!  Another time I traveled up to Montreal to take a lesson from Daniel Thonon.  I felt stuck and needed someone to listen to me and direct me.  He was fantastic.

The first time I met people locally (I live in Maine, USA), was looking at the International Dance clubs around here.  Larger folk dance festivals usually have at least one French gathering.  They do a mixture of cultures -- a LOT of Balkan -- but there were a few folks really into the French stuff, including a clarinetist and hurdy gurdy builder.  We ended up getting together and play together informally.

My first box was a used G/C bought from the Button Box.  The French tunes really do sound better on the G/C, with its lower pitch.

I would second the recommendation for Frederic Paris -- who is my hero.  He does have great technical facility, but I find he's not overly flashy.  A very grounded player.

Best of luck,

Gary Chapin
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docEdock

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 11:37:57 AM »

Gary,

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's inspiring to hear that being outside the culture isn't the kiss of death for learning. I too have been playing traditional British and Irish for years and only recently discovered the French music. When I first heard grivemusicianne I thought, I've simply got to learn how to do that. The last time that happened was long ago when I first heard someone walking along and playing a penny whistle, which eventually led to all sorts of whistles, recorders, and concertinas.

I appreciate the tip about finding where players might gather. With any luck I'll be cruising upstate NY and Montreal this summer. Gotta be a "larger folk dance festival" somewhere around there. If you have any recommendations, please say.

But, now I'm off to find out more about Frederic Paris. I've bumped into his name along the way but can't say that I've really explored what's available.
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 12:31:56 PM »

But, now I'm off to find out more about Frederic Paris. I've bumped into his name along the way but can't say that I've really explored what's available.

Uh, oh, Gary.  I believe we've become "enablers"...
 :D

Gary P Chapin

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Re: Pignol and Milleret Learners, Hello?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 06:57:42 PM »

Yes, enabling for a hard to get drug!

Paris' best work is on "Carnet de Bal" (I think) I had it on cassette and wore it out.  His Rue de l'Oiseau is also fantastic (and available on CD).  Both recordings are in a book with dots and tab.  Now THAT was a valuable resource.

Frederic Paris plays with La Chavanee (sp?) who have three discs available on iTunes.  There are times when I listen to these and think, "Yes, when God said, 'Let there be music,' this is what he was talking about."

Paris also has two recordings of children's music which you might not think worthy, but they are utterly charming.

So Andy, you're in Vermont, DocEd is considering a trip through upstate New York and Montreal?  Do I sense a gathering???
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