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Author Topic: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??  (Read 17679 times)

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Neil_M

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Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« on: December 21, 2010, 07:30:41 PM »

Hello all! I've been allocated funds by kind permission of the good lady wife to purchase one of the above instruments. I've played piano by ear since the age of 12, not to any kind of standard, just for fun. I also got myself a five string banjo a couple of years ago and have had fun with that, but have always fancied an accordion after seeing a morris 'group' (apologies, there's probably a more correct term!) with a chap on piano accordion.

Recently I found on youtube some melodeon videos and was intrigued, I started doing some online research finding this fantastic forum along the way, along with some links to melodeon 'apps' for the iPod/iPhone. Playing totally by ear it's not easy to get the idea of note relationships on a restricted layout unless you can have a tinker - these apps have been ideal for me and have saved some unlucky shop hours of wasted time!

I discovered that a B/C layout was more intuitive to me, and I could bash out a tune in a few minutes. D/G was more tricky but I think that may be something to do with the nature of the push and pull on the app. However, reading posts on this forum convinced me that the lack of bass possibilities on the B/C would make me tend towards the D/G.

Now comes the catch, I was looking at Clive's tutorial video for Schottische a Bethanie (very informative) and decided to have a quick bash at it on the piano as the iPhone apps don't have basses due to the small screen. I managed to play the A part correctly second time round, with chords, which made me ponder whether I'd be more suited to a piano accordion. With the latter I'd be able to pick up the melodies in no time and only have to worry about learning the bass end of the box.

Before anyone shouts at me, I *will* be visiting a local dealer to try both instruments out physically, just don't have the time at the moment. I'm interested to hear if anyone else with a piano background has had a similar experience, and how intuitive they find the melodeon to play.

To be honest I find the melodeon a more interesting prospect, but am not sure if I'd miss the flexibility and simplicity of a standard keyboard layout. Having looked through lots of youtube vids there are many tunes on both instruments which appeal to me.

I'm looking to spend between £300 and £400 for either a new or second hand instrument to get me started. Finally, is there anything a melodeon can do that a PA can't do, apart from being easier to carry? Please convince me that a melodeon is the right path to take! Thanks.



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george garside

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 07:56:05 PM »

the lightness & portability of a melodeon is very important to those of us who go to folk festivals, play in pub sessions  and play for morris sides.  If you intend doing any of these & decide on a piano accordion avoid large 120 bass boxess even though there may well be 'bargains' to be had.  Many find a 48 bass box more than adequate and I  recommend the rarish 60 bass (same as 72 bass but wi;th 5 instead of 6 bass rows.

Back to melodeon  £300 t0 £400  puts you firmly in the 2nd hand market (ignoring the  myriad of chinese clones that crop up under different names at around £250 to £400  & which  I would not recommennd) you may be able to pick up a 3nd hand hohner pokerwork in your price bracket which most of us on melnet would probably recommend.

AS to DG/BC  neither are difficult to learrn (in comparison with other instruments) but the DG is for many easier to get going on.  The choice is do you want to play in S & G with hallf decent bass or have a chromatic box with fairly u;seless bass.

 george
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 07:56:41 PM »

Woah Neil! What a way to start a great thread >:E
Quote
is there anything a melodeon can do that a PA can't do
Well, apart from fly through the air a lot easier when thrown the answer is no. I play both and still find the PA more intuitive (due to years of having bashed up and down a keyboard).
There are those who will tell you that the melodeon has more 'bounce' and is better suited to dance music than the PA because of the push pull system. This of course is total trot - that bounce and movement depends on the player's ability.
The truth of the matter is that, given you already play the piano, you will probably always find the piano keyboard easier, and simply put a PA stradella bass will definitely give you more accompaniment options as you progress.
However, and lest anyone should think I was steering you towards the PA solution, you might just discover the immense pleasure and fun that playing the melodeon can be! It's a terribly limited instrument compared to a PA or CBA, you'll frequently regret the fact that you have an instrument with notes missing and you'll have to find a way around that fact. But the reason I play both is that the melodeon is a much lighter option than most PAs (though I have just ruined that argument by the purchase of a Roland V digital accordion which is as light as many melodeons and is 8 accordions rolled into one very light box indeed); the melodeon is great fun and always gets people up and moving and most importantly, smiling. A melodeon is a different beastie - I suggest you go with both like me and enjoy them both for what they are - different instruments! Finally I think that you'll get a decent melodeon for your budget, PA's are a slightly more . AL
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GbH

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 08:19:50 PM »

Woah Neil! What a way to start a great thread >:E
Quote
is there anything a melodeon can do that a PA can't do
Well, apart from fly through the air a lot easier when thrown the answer is no....

I think I'd probably have to disagree with Al on this.  To me, the melodeon has a particular sound that piano accordions don't seem able to replicate.  I guess some of this comes from the distinctive note articulation that comes from changing notes via bellows change alone.  Also, though, there seems to be something about the basses that set melodeons apart from those instruments that use the stradella system.  Another difference too, partularly obvious when compared to piano boxes, is that the melodeon allows for much greater intervals to be achieved, which would otherwise be too much of a stretch.  From my point of view, I wouldn't have switched from playing the piano system if there hadn't been good reason.

Of course, differences between specific instruments and between different players also stand to confuse the situation, so it's probably a bad idea to suggest any absolute answer.  If you are able to listen to both types of instrument and identify differences that are significant to your own ears, then I guess that might be a good basis as to what would be best for you. 
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 08:28:56 PM »

Quote
To me, the melodeon has a particular sound that piano accordions don't seem able to replicate. 

Whilst that may be so - in my experience the shoe is on the other foot in that the PA has infinitely more sounds than your average melodeon, sounds that a melodeon can't get anywhere near to replicating. A standard 72 bass/34 key PA will often have at least 5 treble couplers, and two or three bass couplers allowing a much greater variety of voicing than a 2 row/8 bass melodeon which would be lucky to have a bass stop to take out the thirds! The advantage that a melodeon has in that case is primarily one of weight and size.
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Québécois

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 09:44:45 PM »

Finally, is there anything a melodeon can do that a PA can't do, apart from being easier to carry? Please convince me that a melodeon is the right path to take! Thanks.
Yes, two words: looking cool!  ;D

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Ollie

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 10:11:41 PM »

One thing that I don't like about PAs is that they can do so much. One of the best things about melodeons is trying to make them do things they don't want to.  >:E :||:
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waltzman

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 10:18:21 PM »

Woah Neil! What a way to start a great thread >:E
Quote
is there anything a melodeon can do that a PA can't do
There are those who will tell you that the melodeon has more 'bounce' and is better suited to dance music than the PA because of the push pull system. This of course is total trot - that bounce and movement depends on the player's ability.

True, but in my experience there isn't one out of a hundred PA players that can do it convincingly.
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george garside

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 10:22:11 PM »

trying to remain totally impartial & not mentioning the wonders of the british chromatic (BCC#)  the continental chromatic is worth considering by anybody new to boxes of any sort.  Far superior in all respects to a piano accordion & for some strange reason can be had , at least in Uk for bargain prices.

george
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Neil_M

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 12:51:51 AM »

Thanks for all the comments, very much appreciated and interesting reading. Since my first post I've been out for the evening and returned to find an email confirming the availability of a good condition D/G Pokerwork with straps for just over £300 relatively local to me. This would appear to be the ideal solution, especially at the price being asked. The PA will have to wait until I've amassed a great deal many more brownie points!

I know I'm moving away from the topic slightly now (I'm sure the OP won't mind!) but having no experience is there anything specific I should look out for when checking out a 2nd hand instrument? Obviously I'll need to check all the buttons work on pull and push, are dodgy bellows easy to spot?

Thanks again!
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ben armatto

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 01:46:38 AM »


True, but in my experience there isn't one out of a hundred PA players that can do it convincingly.

May I humbly submit, from this side of the pond, Stanley "Buckwheat Zydeco" Dural, Jr. and (RIP) Clifton Chenier as one of the hundred still playing and the other of the hundred no longer with us.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 01:26:14 PM by ben armatto »
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Christopher K.

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 02:43:32 AM »

Quote
May I humbly submit, from this side of the pond, Stanley "Buckwheat Zydeco" Dural, Jr. and (RIP) Clifton Chenier as one of the hundred still playing and the other of the hundred no longer with us.

Both are terrific players and jaw dropping showmen (I've watched Buckwheat Zydeco from the front row several times). But the qualities that they impart to the music are different than what zydeco players do on diatonics. They are difficult for me to compare, at least I can't find the words to describe what I mean. But if you watch Wayne Toups play the diatonic (when he's not stirring the musical gumbo too much) and then watch Clifton Chenier or Buckwheat, it's easy to see what I mean. On a good day, Toups will make either of those guys look like they're sleeping and it's all because of how they play the accordion.

Plenty can do it well on the PA -- Scottish, Swedish, Irish, American dance traditions all have their PA stars (rightful stars, not imagined). The source of the confusion, I think, is not that it's difficult to play lively music on a PA, but that it's too easy to be lazy with the PA bellows, and maybe more difficult or impossible to do the same with a diatonic.

I plan on learning the PA, or relearning the piano and learning the (for now) baffling bass arrangement so it should be interesting to try and play both styles. That much being said, I'm a pretty lackluster diatonic player  ;D

RGF

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 03:21:37 AM »

"...not that it's difficult to play lively music on a PA, but that it's too easy to be lazy with the PA bellows..."

There it is in a nutshell. (Although not "lazy", perhaps, as much as "studied".)  When I was taking PA lessons in the 50's and 60's, the instructors' mantra was to not allow your listeners to "hear" the bellows. Be careful where you make the direction changes, always between phrases, so as to not give that away. Use them for volume and emphasis, but not to the extent that they "get in the way of the music".

So I picked up the PA again after a half century retirement, and then a few years after, the 2-row diatonic. (PA by dots, button box by ear.) And now I rather like to think that my brief experience with the 2-row has helped me to un-learn some of that earlier dogma about PA bellows technique.

I do like them both. If I'm in a situation where I need to play (after a fashion!) from the notes, I'll pick up the PA. The button boxes are for when I have time to play about, or to learn tunes I've already fixed in my head through playing the PA.

Bob
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 07:31:46 AM »

Get a melodeon. You can then buy dumbbells for that upper body exercise - and still be in pocket. 

They are also far more compact - my Lily has motorbiked to the Embraud festival in France and then crossed the Alps.   To say nothing of fitting in Ryanair's cabin baggage test cage.  :|glug
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 07:34:45 AM »

I would totally agree with Chris for the reasons he's just outlined -a decent PA will cost far more than a decent melodeon - and is far easier to lug around.
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ladydetemps

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 10:01:37 AM »

Well with MAD or should that be SAD or GAS, if you get one you'll soon get the other anyway. ;)
Of course I'll be recommending melodeon. ;)

nemethmik

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 10:30:03 AM »

a decent PA will cost far more than a decent melodeon
It depends. On ebay.de you can find top-class decent 30-year old piano or chromatic button accordions (with 4-voice hand-made reeds) for a great price. Another example a Castagnari Handry/18 (with hand-made type reeds) is not less expensive than a 5-row Castagnari Magica K3 chromatic button accordion (with hand-made reeds).
Keep in mind though that if you go the diatonic way you will end up in MAD and soon you will buy 5 Liliputs, 4 Clubs, 5 Coronas, a Compadre, a Pokerwork, an Erica, a 4-row Kaernterland, a Saltarelle and a Cajun box in various pitches: B/C, C#/D, C, C/F, Bb/Eb, ADG, GCF, D/G totaling to ca 6000 euros. If you go for the PA or CBA you buy a decent box for 2000 - 5000 and you are done, no MAD.
If it is not too late stay away from buying your 1st diatonic box: playing a diatonic box is addictive and you cannot avoid MAD.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 10:40:02 AM »

Thanks for all the comments, very much appreciated and interesting reading. Since my first post I've been out for the evening and returned to find an email confirming the availability of a good condition D/G Pokerwork with straps for just over £300 relatively local to me. This would appear to be the ideal solution, especially at the price being asked. The PA will have to wait until I've amassed a great deal many more brownie points!


This sounds like a good deal. The D/G Pokerwork is a fine instrument that many melodeon players start out with. It's an excellent beginners' instrument, but also is the choice of many advanced players and professional musicians - John Kirkpatrick immediately comes to mind.

You haven't really indicated what sort of music you want to play, but there is a huge repertoire of traditional music - English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French, Quebecois, etc., which can be played on a two-row diatonic push-pull instrument such as the Pokerwork.  In most cases, this music is based on the simple major or minor/modal minor scales which do not depart from keys such as G, D, Em and Am. To play this sort of music, you don't need a huge range of options offered by a fully chromatic keyboard, nor do you need lots of bass/chord buttons for accompaniment.

The melodeon is an extraordinarily compact and musically economical instrument, yet capable of delivering a very full lively sound and coupled with a basic but satisfying harmonic and rhythmic accompaniment. Yes - it has its limitations, musically. If you want to play music which modulates through a whole range of keys, or simply must play in G# minor, then go for a piano- or chromatic button accordion. But the trade-off with weight and portability is quite significant.

Quote
is there anything specific I should look out for when checking out a 2nd hand instrument? Obviously I'll need to check all the buttons work on pull and push, are dodgy bellows easy to spot?
Mostly use your common sense. If the instrument looks as if it has been badly treated and has significant amounts of rust on the bright-work, that is a bit of a warning sign that all might not be well internally. On Hohner pokerworks (and some others too) the bellows may be prone to superficial wear on the side closest to your body, particularly towards the lower end, where they can be worn by contact with belts/buckles etc. So long as the wear is not too bad, and starting to show deterioration of the cardboard 'mountain folds', this is not necessarily too serious, and can be repaired with replacement bellows tape (plenty of help available from experts on this forum).

You can check the airtightness of the bellows by opening up the bellows - use the air button or play some notes to do this -  and then attempt to gently close the bellows again without having any buttons pressed. You should feel a significant resistance, but a very, very slow closure is e.g. a bellows-full of air closing up over a minute or so, is usually acceptable. A more rapid closure indicates an air leak somewhere and will render the instrument harder work to play. Hold the instrument up to your cheek to feel for air leaks. They are most common around the joins where the bellows are attached to the ends of the instrument. There is a foam/neoprene gasket here which can degrade or become compressed over the years. It is not a difficult job to replace this (again plenty of help available on this forum). More serious would be a leak from a split or hole in the bellows. It may be possible to repair these, but this is not a defect you want to start out with. In this case, look for a different instrument.

Check that all the buttons play in both directions, are more or less in tune, and have much the same volume and resistance throughout the range. Silent or quiet notes are often due to a bit of dust stuck in the reeds and often clear by themselves or else can easily be remedied. More serious is a broken or missing reed. This can usually be identified by a silent note with a degree of audible air hissing, when the button is depressed and the bellows operated. Broken/missing reeds are usually indicative of extraordinarily hard use, and while they can be replaced by a repairman, it is again not a defect that you want to start out with.

Hope this helps.....
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nemethmik

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 10:54:01 AM »

They are also far more compact
Very true if you want to play only one kind of music at a time. But if you want to play a number of kinds of music: you should bring a herd of diatonic boxes, and you should learn a number of fingering and bass systems.
I have done this and I loved the process of learning these systems: it's great fun. But eventually, I want to be proficient on one system only. I still haven't decided either to go for the
  • 3-row bisonoric-diatonic (GCF, ADG) the John Bone style
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Sandy Flett

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Re: Melodeon or Piano Accordion??
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 12:35:37 PM »

Woah Neil! What a way to start a great thread >:E
Quote
is there anything a melodeon can do that a PA can't do
There are those who will tell you that the melodeon has more 'bounce' and is better suited to dance music than the PA because of the push pull system. This of course is total trot - that bounce and movement depends on the player's ability.

True, but in my experience there isn't one out of a hundred PA players that can do it convincingly.

As someone who plays both PA and melodeon, one of my great joys (for my dance tunes, especially) is trying to understand the expression and emphasis that seems to come naturally out of a melodeon and seeing how much of this I can achieve on the accordion (by whatever means) - it really does make the PA a more interesting instrument to play. The other thing I enjoy is playing all my accordion tunes on the melodeon to see which ones particularly lend themselves to the melodeon style - this often involves slowing tunes down to get a more bouncy rhythm, etc.

So if you like the idea of playing both, you can get a lot of extra fun out of the cross influences.
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