Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: advice sought for progress!  (Read 8473 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

michik

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 412
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 09:03:57 PM »

Are you talking about so-called "bellow shakes" ?
 

the bellows 'shakes' shown on the 2 utube clips would not work on a suck and blow box as each shake would produce a different note.  What I am refering to is simple 'pulsing' of the bellows during movement in or  out over a number of notes , but not where a run of ins & outs on individual notes occurs. The so called bellows shake involves a push/pull sequence at whatever speed is appropriate to whatever is being played¬!

Pulsing  is done by using a series of PUSH- push  or PUll - pull actions with the bellows  moving  in one direction i.e. instead of  applying continuous even pressure  the pressure is varied in line with the beat required for a particular type of tune , hence for a waltz  the um pa pa rhythm is generated by a  SLIGHTLY  harder push (the UM) followed by 2  less hard pushes (the PA PA). a 4/4 would be harder push - lesser push  = UM- pa sort of thing.

george

Hm, my accordeon teacher told me to avoid such accordeon technique on a general basis.
She told me to use such technique only for ornamentation, but not throughout the whole melody.
Logged
Michael Knapp ~ Vienna ~ Austria
Playing on "Parigi Giovani" G/C (made by Bompezzo) - My recordings: http://www.onmvoice.com/mknapp

Owen Woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3894
  • melodeonmusic.com
    • The website and blog of Owen Woods
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2011, 09:07:31 PM »

I've met high profile accordion players and teachers who say wholly disparate things on the subject of bellows shake. It's worth noting though that the technique is (as far as I can tell) more common amongst dance musicians than otherwise. I know how much a regular bellows shake can add to the danceability of a tune.
Logged
Bergflodt D/G 4 voice, Saltarelle Bouebe D/G, Super Preciosa D/Em, Hohner Impiliput B/C+C#

Latest blog post: In Any Weather

http://melodeonmusic.com/blog

Alan Morley

  • Alan Morley
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1168
    • UK Folk Music
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2011, 09:08:55 PM »

The effect all through a tune would not really work...good for starts and finishes, or rhythm for accompaniment to vocals or other melody instruments.
Logged
ISIS Melodeon, Hohner Erica,  Fender Strat Plus, Takamine, Hofner Violin Bass, Hohner CX12 Harmonica, etc.... Website: https://folk-music.uk

Martin J

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 902
  • Poole, Dorset
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2011, 09:15:07 PM »

Are you talking about so-called "bellow shakes" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUt6ObU_UFY
....
This guy is great, he's turned a very expensive accordion into a didgerydo.
... and it's not only melodeon players who gurn.
Logged
Castagnari, Weltmeister, Giustozzi, Streb, too many Hohners.  No Strings Attached ceilidh band

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2011, 09:39:09 PM »

The effect all through a tune would not really work...good for starts and finishes, or rhythm for accompaniment to vocals or other melody instruments.

I'm not suggesting  gentle pulsing of the bellows should used throughout a tune but would suggest that it can be used for much more than starts & finishes, being, just like variations in bass style & rhythm ,varied according to the desires of the player & opportunities the tune provides.  As to shake as per the clips  - not a lot of use on a push/pull box and not to be confused with a  subtle  bellows reversal to bring in the note on 'the other side of the button' as a gracenote

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

sqwzboxstudent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
  • dartmoor / gypsy style
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2011, 11:31:24 PM »

thanks for the replys! ive been messing around with pulsing the bellows the last few days! not having much success, but it has made me remember about using volume as dynamics. ive also been messing around with playing two buttons at the same time sort of like a halve chord, and holding down notes in octaves, and  cross rowing for single notes to vary the bass slightly, whilst keepin it dartmoor.

theres also a three part jig i play called random notes, and ive had great fun throwing in bass runs and going over to the e minor bass, but the b music is giving me a bit of a headache, not the treble side, the bass, its a slow run of 12 (in jig time) notes all on the push , and im struggling on how NOT  to um pah on them, any ideas???
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2011, 10:35:21 AM »

theres also a three part jig i play called random notes, and ive had great fun throwing in bass runs and going over to the e minor bass, but the b music is giving me a bit of a headache, not the treble side, the bass, its a slow run of 12 (in jig time) notes all on the push , and im struggling on how NOT  to um pah on them, any ideas???

Random(attributed to Gateshead's own James Hill), yes one of my favourites, played it last night at a ceilidh.

I also struggled with all those push notes up the D arpeggio.  Though they were impossible and gave up, then I heard the wonderful Julian Sutton playing it on a Kathryn Tickell Band CD, so that showed me its was in theory possible.  Its actually a good exercise to take just that phrase and practice it, and  work out where in the phrase you can hop your first finger over or under the others in order to have fingers available for the next 3 or 4 buttons.

I also found the third part hard - all those octave jumps, and I still struggle with my little finger to get the top notes crisp.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

sqwzboxstudent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
  • dartmoor / gypsy style
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2011, 11:50:23 AM »

im ok with the octaves in the third part and have even worked out a bass run of D, Emin, C,  D to go with it.

is there an easy bass run on the push i could use for the b part? i thought of just holding the D chord but that just sucks all the air out!
Logged

Alan Morley

  • Alan Morley
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1168
    • UK Folk Music
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2011, 12:06:10 PM »

It's a cracking tune, I first heard Dave Swarbrick and Simon Nicol's version of it on 'Live at the White Bear' ages ago.

Hope you nail it

Alan
Logged
ISIS Melodeon, Hohner Erica,  Fender Strat Plus, Takamine, Hofner Violin Bass, Hohner CX12 Harmonica, etc.... Website: https://folk-music.uk

sqwzboxstudent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
  • dartmoor / gypsy style
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2011, 01:18:33 PM »

so on a scale of 1 - 10 how hard would random notes be with out any fancy bass or ornamentation?
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2011, 01:33:02 PM »

I found that it was quite challenging, just to learn to play the melody with a good rhythm and lift.  Five out of ten, where one is Winster Gallop an ten is something I haven't learned yet.  Mind you its a logarithmic scale!   ;D ;D

 I'm not taking this too seriously because so much depends on the individual,  one persons easy-peasy tune other may find a challenge.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Alan Morley

  • Alan Morley
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1168
    • UK Folk Music
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2011, 04:14:42 PM »

I know it's written in 'D', but I find it easier to play on the 'G' row with an 'Am' bass chord in there.

Having said that - I have only just attempted it and I don't read dots....but it feels like I'll need a lot of time to get it into my head, even though I know the tune.

'G' is not so good when your are playing with people who play it in 'D' though...


Almo
Logged
ISIS Melodeon, Hohner Erica,  Fender Strat Plus, Takamine, Hofner Violin Bass, Hohner CX12 Harmonica, etc.... Website: https://folk-music.uk

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2011, 04:43:04 PM »


'G' is not so good when your are playing with people who play it in 'D' though...


But surely you can just hit your key change footswitch and hey presto, you will be in D. 8)
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Alan Morley

  • Alan Morley
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1168
    • UK Folk Music
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2011, 04:48:45 PM »


'G' is not so good when your are playing with people who play it in 'D' though...


But surely you can just hit your key change footswitch and hey presto, you will be in D. 8)

Whoops - rumbled.... ::)

Almo
Logged
ISIS Melodeon, Hohner Erica,  Fender Strat Plus, Takamine, Hofner Violin Bass, Hohner CX12 Harmonica, etc.... Website: https://folk-music.uk

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2011, 08:43:45 AM »

theres also a three part jig i play called random notes, and ive had great fun throwing in bass runs and going over to the e minor bass, but the b music is giving me a bit of a headache, not the treble side, the bass, its a slow run of 12 (in jig time) notes all on the push , and im struggling on how NOT  to um pah on them, any ideas???

(melodeon not available at work, so I'm only imagining what I would do...)
I think I hold the D bass note for 5 treble notes, playing a chord on just the sixth, then revert to um pah on the second bar. Breaking up the rhythm even that little makes a huge difference. Also changing from held note to rhythmic bass add to to build up excitement as the RH climbs up up to a peak at that top note. Start it quiet and get louder as you go up for best effect.

I also struggled with all those push notes up the D arpeggio.  Thought they were impossible and gave up
I do a sort of crabwise crawl up the keyboard, 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-[1-2-3 or 2-3-4]
Coming down is the tricky bit - when you have to jump from an A which is inevitably on 1st finger down to a D two buttons away. I just make the jump: a slight silence between the notes at that point helps to separate the phrase from its repeat.

I also like to give it some shape by playing three notes legato and the next three staccato, or some variation on that.

Great tune - must play more often...
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Marje

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 486
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2011, 02:10:25 PM »

I love that tune and it's a great favourite at local sessions. We usually precede it with Hexam Quadrille (aka "I'll Get Wed in my Auld Claes"). My main problem with it is that certain musicians on certain other instruments will keep speeding it up, so that in the end you can't hear all the notes and it just sort of thumps along, like in a bad Irish session.

Whatever our faults may be as melodeon players, we're generally not the ones responsible for daft, uncontrolled acceleration of tunes.

Maybe the trick in the B part is to use very little bass in those arpeggio runs - just tap lightly on either the fundamental or the chord button but possibly not both. You don't want to drown out the right-hand tune, which at that point sounds cleverer and more difficult  than it actually is. Holding both buttons down might work for some, but as gypsylad says there's a risk of running out of air. It depends both on the box and on the playing style.

In the C part, I play the first octave-triplet of As on the D row, then cross to the G row to play the next triplet of Bs with a G bass, then back to the D row for the rest. This gives a nice chord sequence of D-G-A-D and balances out the pushes and pulls.
Logged
Marje

Martin J

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 902
  • Poole, Dorset
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2011, 02:18:45 PM »

I don't know the tune.  Is the middle one of this set the same tune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G17_30Du-9Y
Logged
Castagnari, Weltmeister, Giustozzi, Streb, too many Hohners.  No Strings Attached ceilidh band

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2011, 02:21:05 PM »

Yes, well found.  It is very difficult to do a search for "Random" or "Random notes"
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

sqwzboxstudent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
  • dartmoor / gypsy style
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2011, 04:09:24 PM »

il try and get a video of it on utube later!
Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: advice sought for progress!
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2011, 04:30:22 PM »

I .

 Maybe the trick in the B part is to use very little bass in those arpeggio runs - just tap lightly on either the fundamental or the chord button but possibly not both. You don't want to drown out the right-hand tune, which at that point sounds cleverer and more difficult  than it actually is. Holding both buttons down might work for some, but as gypsylad says there's a risk of running out of air. It depends both on the box and on the playing style.

In .

 theres a lot to be said from stopping the bass at the beginning of a fancy bit of the melody as a sort of reverse ornementation (and its entirely free of charge!) The trick to make it effective is to  decide carefully exactly where & in what way to bring the bass back in at the end of the ''fancy bit'  .An added bonus is that when the bass is abruptly stopped the treble goes suddenly louder ( unless evasive action is taken to prevent this) and thus puts an extra emphasis on the melody - when the bass is resumed the treble will go quieter as the air pressure in the bellows is once more going in two directions.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal